All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[numberthirty]

Clearly you are interested in doing so, since that's what you did.

Could you please quote the post I replied to that was "Did a more competent plan exist?"

Actually, I can link to it(along with the rest of the post that pretty clearly involved what a more competent plan would actually have consisted of...)

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5703081

[PwrdOn]

A reminder that all of this relies on a quantity of troops in the area that Trump left us without. To hold Trump blameless for this crisis is disingenuous and Deflecting. There are things I wish had been done better, but it's not as if Biden sat down and personally drafted these plans. They were made by the military long before Biden took office. I would imagine they were sold to the president as the best of bad options, and I don't have enough information to dispute that.

The real issue with these conservative fantasy scenarios is that they ignore the primary constraint that the Biden administration had to operate under - maintaining the fiction that the withdrawal of American forces was NOT a retreat or admission of defeat, but simply "transferring responsibility" to Afghan forces. If we had started evacuating embassy staff and journalists before the Taliban actually captured Kabul, there would have been legitimate questions as to why we were abandoning our allies and undermining Afghan morale when the military situation still looked salvageable. Of course, we know NOW that it wasn't, but remember that up until the very end people were speculating that the government could still hold onto Kabul for a few weeks or that the Taliban would try to take the city on 9/11 for propaganda value. And of course, we had plenty of chances in the last 20 years to evacuate all of the Afghans who had been assisting our forces, but successive administrations just kept kicking that can down the road because they didn't want the political backlash that came with that, so while unfortunate it was kind of inevitable that there would be this mad rush to get out at the very end.

Not setting the window for when you are going to do it in the midst of a known fighting season.

For starters...

The season didn't matter, because the Taliban didn't actually have to fight to capture most of the country. They already had negotiated deals with local leaders to surrender and once the dominoes started falling they were able to take a bunch of territory without a fight. Even in the dead of winter it would not have been an issue for them to march into Kabul unopposed like they did.

[green_garnish]

Actually, I can link to it(along with the rest of the post that pretty clearly involved what a more competent plan would actually have consisted of...)

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5703081

"What, exactly, is the logical case for deciding to do this right now?"

"When is the logical case for doing it? "

"Don't set a time window."

I would hope you can see that is not a natural progression of the discussion.

I think what you're trying to suggest is that this is the "fighting season" so don't leave right now. Apparently even though we don't have the troops or other resources to fight. So I'm at a loss to understand what your point really is. Please explain. How could this have been better, with less chaos and fewer deaths?

[Kirby101]

https://twitter.com/AlexThomp/status...857731/photo/1

[numberthirty]

"What, exactly, is the logical case for deciding to do this right now?"

"When is the logical case for doing it? "

"Don't set a time window."

I would hope you can see that is not a natural progression of the discussion.

I think what you're trying to suggest is that this is the "fighting season" so don't leave right now. Apparently even though we don't have the troops or other resources to fight. So I'm at a loss to understand what your point really is. Please explain. How could this have been better, with less chaos and fewer deaths?

Since only one person is actually saying that?

Gotta politely disagree with whatever "Natural progression..." should be.

Past that?

It's not "Don't leave right now..."

It is "Have had a plan not to leave right now months back..."

...


The season didn't matter, because the Taliban didn't actually have to fight to capture most of the country. They already had negotiated deals with local leaders to surrender and once the dominoes started falling they were able to take a bunch of territory without a fight. Even in the dead of winter it would not have been an issue for them to march into Kabul unopposed like they did.

That does not magically create a situation where knocking the dominoes over at the most advantageous time for the Taliban is a sensible course of action.

[CSTowle]

Tracking people movement there is much, much tighter. When I go over..I can’t get a bus ticket without producing my passport, for example. (Chance would be a fine thing…no chance of getting a visa for last 2 years.)

Another example, last October grand-daughter was going to visit a friend in another city. Day before she was going there, there was one positive case in her friends city…so if grand-daughter had gone she would have been in quarantine for 10 days on return to own city. And it would been enforced with near 100 percent certainty.

Do I believe the “detail” of the Chinese figures? Of course not…but I’m pretty sure they are much, much lower than US/ Uk figures.

I have no doubt they'd be lower despite the larger population because the man in charge over here simply didn't care and didn't coordinate. We were doomed to a higher total from the start once he started politicizing masks. Do I believe China's looking at less than 1% of our death total? Honestly, no. Do I think the communist regime would collapse if they shared the true number? No again, which is why the lie is frustrating.

And ISIS rose during Obama, becasue of Bush W's invasion of Iraq, can be pointed to Clinton's inept attempt to get Bin Laden, And Bush the first half job during Desert Storm, coming from Regan's not so stellar end to the backing of the mujahedeen, to Carter... you get it its away more complicated than a "Trump said..."

It is way more complicated, which is why when a candidate for President says something so mind-numbingly stupid like "I have a great plan, beautiful plan...(etc.)" and then goes on to become President they need to be held to account when that plan never materializes.

[numberthirty]

"What, exactly, is the logical case for deciding to do this right now?"

"When is the logical case for doing it? "

"Don't set a time window."

I would hope you can see that is not a natural progression of the discussion.

I think what you're trying to suggest is that this is the "fighting season" so don't leave right now. Apparently even though we don't have the troops or other resources to fight. So I'm at a loss to understand what your point really is. Please explain. How could this have been better, with less chaos and fewer deaths?

As for this?

Someone pretty easily points it out here...

The real issue with these conservative fantasy scenarios is that they ignore the primary constraint that the Biden administration had to operate under - maintaining the fiction that the withdrawal of American forces was NOT a retreat or admission of defeat, but simply "transferring responsibility" to Afghan forces. If we had started evacuating embassy staff and journalists before the Taliban actually captured Kabul, there would have been legitimate questions as to why we were abandoning our allies and undermining Afghan morale when the military situation still looked salvageable. Of course, we know NOW that it wasn't, but remember that up until the very end people were speculating that the government could still hold onto Kabul for a few weeks or that the Taliban would try to take the city on 9/11 for propaganda value. And of course, we had plenty of chances in the last 20 years to evacuate all of the Afghans who had been assisting our forces, but successive administrations just kept kicking that can down the road because they didn't want the political backlash that came with that, so while unfortunate it was kind of inevitable that there would be this mad rush to get out at the very end.

...

Even a reasonable amount of that would have resulted in a better result with less chaos and fewer deaths.

Biden was a part of one of those administrations and ran on being the "Competent..." political alternative.

That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for that there is no way that he could have figured for something like what is happening.

[PwrdOn]

I have no doubt they'd be lower despite the larger population because the man in charge over here simply didn't care and didn't coordinate. We were doomed to a higher total from the start once he started politicizing masks. Do I believe China's looking at less than 1% of our death total? Honestly, no. Do I think the communist regime would collapse if they shared the true number? No again, which is why the lie is frustrating.

China's covid numbers only seem low now because we know how rapidly the virus can spread and how deadly it can be. At the beginning of the pandemic when it had yet to really spread, the 3500 or so deaths that China was reporting, nearly all of them concentrated in the immediate vicinity of Wuhan within just a month or so of the outbreak, already looked to be catastrophic and were enough for plenty of Western commentators to start gloating about their imminent downfall. It was only after death tolls elsewhere started rising and eventually far exceeding those numbers that people started to accuse the Chinese of faking their numbers, without any evidence of what the true figures would be of course.

And it's not really that hard to see why they've managed to keep their numbers so low. Because the Chinese government wasn't under any pressure to reopen before they were ready, they simply kept the "draconian" lockdown measures in place until they were absolutely sure the virus had been stamped out, and then whenever there's even a hint of an outbreak, they'll test tens of millions of people within days and track exactly who and where the latest flare up originated from. And lo and behold, not only did their economy not suffer from this, but they were actually the only major economy to grow in 2020 and are doing well enough now that the government feels comfortable enough to start pushing strict climate regulations and cracking down on big tech, things that our government would never attempt even in the best of times, never mind during a pandemic.

Even a reasonable amount of that would have resulted in a better result with less chaos and fewer deaths.

Biden was a part of one of those administrations and ran on being the "Competent..." political alternative.

That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for that there is no way that he could have figured for something like what is happening.

Biden ran as a moderate who could reach across the aisle, which when it comes to immigration policy always means letting the hawks have their way. Seems like everyone was just deluding themselves into thinking that all of these Afghans would simply just be content to stay put and wouldn't try to come here, ignoring the rather obvious if uncomfortable fact that we literally induced them to collaborate with a foreign occupying army which even under the laxest codes of law would make them guilty of treason, never mind how the Taliban would see it.

[Jack Dracula]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...vacuate-506957

Just when you think his incompetence reached its limits...

It's funny that now you're suddenly concerned with competence.
Frankly, you've already proven that your opinion doesn't count for much.

[green_garnish]

Not setting the window for when you are going to do it in the midst of a known fighting season.

For starters...

Since only one person is actually saying that?

Gotta politely disagree with whatever "Natural progression..." should be.

You are the one who said it, but if I understand the undertone of your reply, you object to others saying you said it. Do you see how that makes it difficult to follow a discussion with you?

[worstblogever]

Seems like somebody was risking injuring their arm waving a bloody shirt around so dramatically this afternoon in here.

[numberthirty]

You are the one who said it, but if I understand the undertone of your reply, you object to others saying you said it. Do you see how that makes it difficult to follow a discussion with you?

Politely?

What actually happened went a little more like this...

I've I've noted numerous times that I support us getting out..problem was and continues to be the HOW. Giving a different way just provides all of you more opportunity to Deflect by arguing against whatever I propose but I'll accept that so:
1. Don't announce an end date. What Trump agreed to has no bearing on Biden. It wasn't a treaty ratified by congress that he was legally bound to sonit was his call to follow all, parts or none of it. End dates simply empower your enemy and demoralize your allies in country.
2. Retain Bagram and the air power that went with it. That has always been our greatest advantage..the ability to call in airstrikws to cover our actions...including evacuation and stifling an enemies advance. He gave it up.
3. Get the civilians.out first while you have the ability to use your airpower. He chose to get them out after we didn't.
4. Use the retained Bagram instead of the Kabul airport...more easily defended and 2 runways instead of one.
5. After civilians out, destroy whatever military equipment equipment you can rather than leave it for your enemy.
6. Troops out last, arrange to have continuous sorties flying as you do to hold your enemy at bay. Even if that mean establishing an small airfield in a secure location temporarily that can be folded up quickly.

No.doubt there would problems as with any operation. But do all of you really believe leaving Americans behind is okay? Because that's where this is headed.

"What, exactly, is the logical case for deciding to do this right now?"

"When is the logical case for doing it? "

"Don't set a time window."

I would hope you can see that is not a natural progression of the discussion.

I think what you're trying to suggest is that this is the "fighting season" so don't leave right now. Apparently even though we don't have the troops or other resources to fight. So I'm at a loss to understand what your point really is. Please explain. How could this have been better, with less chaos and fewer deaths?

Again...

Only one person was saying anything like that.

[numberthirty]

So...

Saying that the actual window of time should have been in a different chronological position is not the same thing as just not setting any window.

Don't really mind if you disagree with the former. Just not going to entertain a discussion about the latter when it is not something that I ever said.

[numberthirty]

Even if this does not wind up taking, it is one more step in the right direction...

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ypi-story.html

Superintendent Brown seeks 4 Chicago police officers’ firing over alleged choking incident

[Tendrin]

Seems like somebody was risking injuring their arm waving a bloody shirt around so dramatically this afternoon in here.

The deeply racially charged history of that phrase is actually pretty interesting.