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  1. #3931
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    Do you think it's possible that, if the Republicans are trounced in November's election, we could see the creation of a viable third party made up of more moderate Republicans, and the crazies will be relegated to a Tea Party Republican party?
    Doubtful. The GOP too far gone at this point, overtaken by the extremists and those crazies you mentioned. For them, there’s no turning back, they enjoyed the power that came from having a lunatic like Trump as their standard bearer. There’s no doubt in my mind Republicans will look for another madman like Trump, or possibly someone worse to head their ticket for 2024.
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  2. #3932
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Yeah. If you have a Party of Inclusion versus a Party of Exclusion, over time the Party of Exclusion is going to exclude it's self out of existence. There is diversity in a number of countries, though few come anywhere close to the degree of diversity that can be found in the US.

    Trump and his Republican followers act as if they are living in, well, a country that their ancestors controlled in isolation from the rest of the world for thousands of years. A country without diversity.

    Fewer and fewer countries fit that profile. The US is the antithesis of that profile.
    A complicating factor in your theory in this is that the groups aren't constant. Groups that were excluded generations ago are included later. For example, Irish and Italian-Americans were once seen as outsiders.

    You can see a bit of the transition with the way Hispanic Americans are divided into white Hispanics, and nonwhite Hispanics, a distinction that didn't seem to exit a few years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    I tend to agree that if the Democrats win out in the fall, it's not the end of Republican party. The following midterms would tell the health of the party.

    What I am interested in seeing is if the Republicans lose both the white house and senate, will this be the end of the Tea Party/Trumpism that's held sway over the party for about a decade? Or will they double down on it, and run Trump styled (possibly backed) candidates in 2022?
    Well, there is a theory that Trump will run again.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/videos/c...again-in-2024/

    Jeet Heer provided a motive,
    https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1264695029055909888

    There are a lot of unknowns. If Trump loses in 2020 and runs again in 2024, a Republican who beats him in a primary is well-positioned to move the party in a new direction. And whatever happens in '24 might not be relevant in '28.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #3933
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Even if the Dems win big in November, the Republicans would still have a great chance to take back the Senate and/or the House in the mid-terms because traditionally fewer people vote in the mid-terms. Lower voter turn out favors the republicans. I would love to see election days become national holidays. Sadly that won’t happen.

    The Republicans have gone all in with White Nationalism. As long as Fox News and right wing media keep pumping out racist conspiracy theories, the Republican Party will be the party of Trump and his ilk. I think they actually had a chance to rebrand themselves about 20 years ago and have a bit more inclusion. Blue collar and lower socioeconomic class Hispanics and African Americans are traditionally more religious, focus on “family values”, they’re not the biggest supporters of the LGBTQ community, and are in favor fiscal responsibility. All staples of the traditional GOP platform. George W. Bush did surprisingly well his Hispanics, but The GOP has long squandered and chance of expanding their base. They’re going to have to rely on voter suppression, gerrymandering, and other types of good old fashioned cheating to survive.
    On the plus side, the 2022 Senate map is supposed to heavily favor Democrats.

    And I thought of one thing Warren can do to stymie the effect of her (possibly) being named to the ticket as Veep. She could resign her seat immediately, since state law requires an election within 6 months. That could force a budget conscious governor to hold the election for her seat in November to save money, especially with the budget shortfalls all states seem to be having due to the Coronavirus.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  4. #3934
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    But the monuments destroyed in Ancient Egypt when they were destroyed were not ancient either. Most of them were only a few decades to a century-old when later generations decided they didn't want them around. We know because we've found many of the fragments strewn about under sand miles away.

    As a historian and a sociologist, I'll miss them. I guess I'm a racist or an enabler. So what, I'd rather be labeled in such a way than be an iconoclast (non-religious meaning) any day.
    For the most part the Confederate statues aren't being destroyed (protests notwithstanding) but being moved to more appropriate locations.

    Plus, as a historian, you should be aware that the overwhelming majority of Confederate monuments were erected not to remember history, but to rewrite it. To me, that changes things immensely. And, unlike ancient monuments, we have other ways of remembering the history of that time. Getting rid of hagiographic monuments won't erase history, it will preserve it against those who would whitewash it with lies.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  5. #3935
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    The comparison to ancient Egypt is pointless because ancient Egyptians did not have terabytes of history books uploaded to cloud servers yet. That far back in history, statues and wall decorations are basically the only info we have. And those were hardly peer reviewed.
    This, it would be a catastrophically bad situation if confederate statues were all people 2000 years from now had to go by from this time frame.

  6. #3936
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    For the most part the Confederate statues aren't being destroyed (protests notwithstanding) but being moved to more appropriate locations.

    Plus, as a historian, you should be aware that the overwhelming majority of Confederate monuments were erected not to remember history, but to rewrite it. To me, that changes things immensely. And, unlike ancient monuments, we have other ways of remembering the history of that time. Getting rid of hagiographic monuments won't erase history, it will preserve it against those who would whitewash it with lies.
    I never like seeing any monuments destroyed. I'm a proud antiquarian. I don't always agree with the past but I respect its need to be preserved warts and all.

    Edit - And there is always the very real danger if something is suppressed it will go underground and fester.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-13-2020 at 09:23 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  7. #3937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I never like seeing any monuments destroyed. I'm a proud antiquarian. I don't always agree with the past but I respect its need to be preserved warts and all.

    Edit - And there is always the very real danger if something is suppressed it will go underground and fester.
    It does seem weird to lionize the traitors and treasonous though. I mean, would it be wrong for the French to tear down a statue of Petain?

  8. #3938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    A complicating factor in your theory in this is that the groups aren't constant. Groups that were excluded generations ago are included later. For example, Irish and Italian-Americans were once seen as outsiders.

    You can see a bit of the transition with the way Hispanic Americans are divided into white Hispanics, and nonwhite Hispanics, a distinction that didn't seem to exit a few years ago.

    Well, there is a theory that Trump will run again.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/videos/c...again-in-2024/

    Jeet Heer provided a motive,
    https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1264695029055909888

    There are a lot of unknowns. If Trump loses in 2020 and runs again in 2024, a Republican who beats him in a primary is well-positioned to move the party in a new direction. And whatever happens in '24 might not be relevant in '28.
    A bit presumptuous to claim the USA will still exist in 2028.


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  9. #3939
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    It does seem weird to lionize the traitors and treasonous though. I mean, would it be wrong for the French to tear down a statue of Petain?
    French here! Done. The last one was taken down in 2014, but most had been taken down way earlier. Funny enough, the last commemorative nameplate is in NY!

  10. #3940
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    It does seem weird to lionize the traitors and treasonous though. I mean, would it be wrong for the French to tear down a statue of Petain?
    If a province had put up a statute to him decades ago I'd say if they want to keep it let them. What a lot of people don't understand about my position is that I see history via a cold, dispassionate eye (as a classically trained historian should). I don't let my value judgments enter into the equation, at least I attempt not to do so. If someone asks my opinion on a given person or event I'll tell them, but I'm not for trying to erase history (even a little) by way of tearing down monuments of any kind.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #3941
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Republican candidate for Senate in Oregon Jo Rae Perkins told TPM that she’s “happy” to have another candidate in the mix who reads QAnon posts, after Marjorie Greene became the presumptive next congresswoman in Georgia’s 14th district.
    That one on your radar, WBE?

  12. #3942
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    How is this? Let the area vote in a plebiscite. If they want the monument in question to go it goes to be placed in a museum. Does that sound fair? I think it is a good solution.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 06-14-2020 at 04:29 AM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #3943
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    On the plus side, the 2022 Senate map is supposed to heavily favor Democrats.

    And I thought of one thing Warren can do to stymie the effect of her (possibly) being named to the ticket as Veep. She could resign her seat immediately, since state law requires an election within 6 months. That could force a budget conscious governor to hold the election for her seat in November to save money, especially with the budget shortfalls all states seem to be having due to the Coronavirus.
    The 2022 map won't be that awesome for Democrats.

    There are pick-up opportunities for Republicans in Colorado, Nevada and New Hampshire.

    And if the political environment isn't great for Democrats, they might not gain seats anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    For the most part the Confederate statues aren't being destroyed (protests notwithstanding) but being moved to more appropriate locations.

    Plus, as a historian, you should be aware that the overwhelming majority of Confederate monuments were erected not to remember history, but to rewrite it. To me, that changes things immensely. And, unlike ancient monuments, we have other ways of remembering the history of that time. Getting rid of hagiographic monuments won't erase history, it will preserve it against those who would whitewash it with lies.
    That's a good point. The monuments are not about history. A lot of it was about a mythology that was helpful in uniting the country after the civil war.

    There is a mistake in believing that people who respected confederates recognize the problems. Often it was about building up a BS mythology. It's a bit similar to how Christopher Columbus was elevated because it was seen as politically useful to promote a Catholic Italian-American.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #3944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    If a province had put up a statute to him decades ago I'd say if they want to keep it let them. What a lot of people don't understand about my position is that I see history via a cold, dispassionate eye (as a classically trained historian should). I don't let my value judgments enter into the equation, at least I attempt not to do so. If someone asks my opinion on a given person or event I'll tell them, but I'm not for trying to erase history (even a little) by way of tearing down monuments of any kind.
    A lot of those statues, the bulk in fact, are about renouncing, rewriting, and ignoring history to suit an ahistorical narrative.

    And that isn’t news. It wasn’t news in the 1960s, when the bulk went up.

    It wasn’t news in the 1860s, when George Thomas, the Union General from Virginia, made note of the attempt to rewrite history going on Reconstruction. The purpose of the statues and monuments isn’t to mourn the dead or record history. It’s to lionize, reconfigure, and obfuscate what history the Lost Cause wants to include, and drown out what facts, figures, and cold hard, history would throw shade, horror, and dispassionate strategic arithmetic and political gambles over their false and shallow narrative.

    If it were about history, there’d be a heck of a lot more statues of Sherman all over the South, inscribed with his words about the folly of rebellion, and the inevitable strategic advantages that the will of the North would beat the Confederates down with... but that would betray the foolishness and horrible toll of a minority political faction throwing a tantrum over losing an election they themselves tried to rig in their favor. There’d be more statues of Confederate James Longstreet than of Forrest, Beauregard, and perhaps even Stonewall Jackson, as he was Lee’s most favored second in command and lasted the entire war... but he became a Unionist “scalawag” after the war who defended Reconstruction, so that’s inconvenient.

    There would be laments and memorials condemning the Army of Northern Virginia for enslaving freemen on their invasions of the North, there’d be memorial to Nat Turner’s Rebellion, there would be a sign only a few hundred feet outside my apartment door pointing out that Bloody Bill Anderson was a rapist and war criminal...

    ...And there wouldn’t be a single damn Confederate stature north of the Mason Dixon line, or the Missouri border.

    Your perspective is not dispassionate in this particular case as it applies to Confederate statues In the United States. It is instead ignorant, perhaps innocently so, but ignorant all the same.

    I would add that I do have some reservations about particular memorials, though; if it designed to mourn the loss of life, I’m more inflicted to be wary of destroying it. It’s it’s an attempt to create martyrdom, than it needs to be dispassionately corrected. But something like the Missouri memorial placed in the Vicksburg battlefield, where two different opposing Missouri units engaged in battle with each other... that I’d be willing to debate on.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  15. #3945
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It does seem premature to say that the party with the White House, control of the Senate, and a majority of Governors is likely to go away.

    Parties get weaker at times, but they tend to recover.

    Richard Nixon won a 49 state landslide two years before Democrats beat Republicans by 15% in the 1974 Senate midterms.

    It's entirely possible that Biden will deliver a massive asskicking to Trump, and that Democrats will control the Senate. But the midterms tend to be bad for the party in the White House, and the 2024 is likely to be an open presidential election.
    If Democrats manage to hold the Senate and the House, they might finally make Puerto Rico and DC states and there never will be Republican control like we suffered through from 2016 to 2018 ever again. Not to mention that several states will be trending blue by then because of old white racists dying off.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

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