All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Catlady in training]

I think that was a few days ago, but I'm sure they are keeping the outrage going. Probably trying to make Biden buying ice cream the new tan suit scandal.

Yep. But That was last week or so.q

It just seemed so bizarre, I wasn't sure I understand correctly or if I'm missing something .

[Kirby101]

Choosing not to sell someone's transphobic hate book that violates your own policies against selling books that portray an LGBTQ identity as mental illness, however, is not a first amendment breach.

IANAL, but the occasions I've heard of corps being sued like that have to do with things like this: https://www.scotusblog.com/2019/06/o...20corporations.

That said, my response there was wrong, but stems mostly from having dealt with too many 'mah free speach!' dorks on twitter who thinks the first amendment protects them from criticism and consequence.

I wasn't talking about that case at all. I was speaking to whether there can be censorship beyond a government.

I agree about internet idiots who have no idea what censorship really is.

It's like religious folks who cry about being entitled to their beliefs when you challenge them. As if being free to have beliefs means no one can question them.

[Catlady in training]

I'm conflating my definition with how the first amendment works, which seems likely. That said, I stand by my objection: Abigal Shrier was hardly 'censored' or 'canceled'. Her book is still easily obtainable, she's been on countless youtubes, podcasts, had major media interviews, appeared before the god damn senate and more, all the while spreading anti-gay, anti-trans rhetoric. There are no, as we've repeatedly seen, consequences for transphobia.

People claiming being cancelled, while appearing on multiple platforms to talk about their cancelling are really a gift. If you are cancelled, how can I see and hear you?

I'm unaware of the book claiming that all transgenderism, or all ftm trans people, is a social contagion. The Psychology Today article certainly does not address any comments about social contagion, or the elements that have gotten the most favorable coverage (a disproportionately high percentage of teenagers who identify as trans boys are autistic or have some personality disorders, there are high instances of friend groups transitioning which would be statistically unlikely, taking testosterone produces temporary feelings of euphoria and reduces anxiety which can contribute to an individual's excitement about the treatment.)

Geez, could it maybe be because transgender people loose many cis friends when they come out and find out that even people who they would never expect to be transphobic actually are? Or that they might feel more comfortable to be friends with other transgender people, who are going through the same things as they are? There doesn't have to be some trans conspiracy behind that.

It seems to me that if one in ten people identified as trans are misdiagnosed, Shrier is making a valuable contribution by pointing that out, given the permanent consequences of testosterone injections, and double mastectomies. Someone else may have a different standard, although we should be clear about what those are.

Mastectomies are not that permanent, since a person can have a reconstrustion.
And some people seem too comfortable with the idea that it is ok to harass a group of people under the pretense of saving some of them. Reminds me of those who say we should doubt all victims who report sexual violence, because one of them might be lying.

[Tendrin]

People claiming being cancelled, while appearing on multiple platforms to talk about their cancelling are really a gift. If you are cancelled, how can I see and hear you?



Geez, could it maybe be because transgender people loose many cis friends when they come out and find out that even people who they would never expect to be transphobic actually are? Or that they might feel more comfortable to be friends with other transgender people, who are going through the same things as they are? There doesn't have to be some trans conspiracy behind that.



Mastectomies are not that permanent, since a person can have a reconstrustion.
And some people seem too comfortable with the idea that it is ok to harass a group of people under the pretense of saving some of them. Reminds me of those who say we should doubt all victims who report sexual violence, because one of them might be lying.

It's a long time truism that 'gays move in packs'. It's true of all LGBTQIA people.

[CSTowle]

This is very simple. Is it the government doing it? No? Then it's not censorship. Saying 'hey, you guys are carrying hateful material, couldjafuckinnot', isn't censorship. People choosing not to stock hateful material? Also isn't censorship.

And there are *plenty* of other booksellers out there who plainly stocked it, given it's *best selling nature*. The entire point of the activism is to bring attention, instead, to the fact that it's transphobic, hateful, inaccurate, misleading, and harmful.

Weird how people are all about the anti-gay baker not having to bake gay wedding cakes, but you ask a bookseller not to sell transphobic books, and it's all of a sudden 'censorship'.

If corporations can be sued for First Amendment violations, and they can, then we must accept that censorship can be defined beyond government agencies alone.

I was going to disagree with the point that if it's not the government doing it then it's not censorship (of course there are other forms of censorship, for many reasons, by the private sector) but will agree censorship isn't necessarily covered by the 1st Amendment if it's not done by the government (though in some cases it may, and should be).

[JackDaw]

Geez, could it maybe be because transgender people loose many cis friends when they come out and find out that even people who they would never expect to be transphobic actually are? Or that they might feel more comfortable to be friends with other transgender people, who are going through the same things as they are? There doesn't have to be some trans conspiracy behind that.

A friend recently came out, and based on that tend to think “strong transphobia” is fairly unusual in my part of UK. (She’s got about 200 clients of her accountancy business, just 2 decided they needed a new accountant.)

But I think it probably does lead to a “re-balancing of friends” (if that’s right phrase) for all sorts of reasons, not least because person herself is interested in talking about different subjects, less sport, more fashion and cooking.

[Moon Ronin]

If corporations can be sued for First Amendment violations, and they can, then we must accept that censorship can be defined beyond government agencies alone.

You can't sue a corporation for violating freedom of speech/religion most of those fall under civil rights suites. But I do agree that censorship is not solely in the wheel house of the government.

[Mister Mets]

People claiming being cancelled, while appearing on multiple platforms to talk about their cancelling are really a gift. If you are cancelled, how can I see and hear you?



Geez, could it maybe be because transgender people loose many cis friends when they come out and find out that even people who they would never expect to be transphobic actually are? Or that they might feel more comfortable to be friends with other transgender people, who are going through the same things as they are? There doesn't have to be some trans conspiracy behind that.



Mastectomies are not that permanent, since a person can have a reconstrustion.
And some people seem too comfortable with the idea that it is ok to harass a group of people under the pretense of saving some of them. Reminds me of those who say we should doubt all victims who report sexual violence, because one of them might be lying.

Who thinks it's okay to harass a group of people under the pretense of saving some of them?

With friend groups, there are some situations where it seems statistically unlikely. If a statistically unusual group of people within one grade in one school (IE- seven out of 150 students) transition that's a different situation than trans people from a larger population pool encountering one another in a friendly environment.

There may be complicating factors. This is a large country, so you'll have things that are statistically unlikely in an individual situation. It may very well be that the accepted wisdom of what percent of the population are trans men underestimates the number, which means assumptions about statistical abnormalities are incorrect. If environmental factors play any role, that won't be distributed evenly in the population.

Dude. The book is literally subtitled 'the transgender craze seducing our daughters'. I don't know how much more clear Shrier needs to make her argument.

I did not get the impression that you paid very much attention to the link you linked.


No. You're arguing in support of the merit of a book that is incredibly transphobic.



Dude. The book is literally subtitled 'the transgender craze seducing our daughters'. I don't know how much more clear Shrier needs to make her argument. In the book, she literally suggests kids being exposed to transgenderism makes them trans over the internet. That's like arguing that gay people become gay because they're exposed to other gay people. Her first chapter is literally called 'the contagion'.

If you're okay with this, it says more about what narratives you're willing to accept and what level of transphobia you're comfortable with than anything else.

As for 'one in ten', the reality of detransition is that it's hard to separate the social pressures people are operating under. At least some people who detransition do so because of that.

From the interviews I've listened to and read, she seems much more nuanced than her detractors.

It could be simultaneously true that some people are trans men, and best served by a combination of affirmation, surgery and testosterone therapy, but that for some adolescents who identify as trans, something different is going on.

If corporations can be sued for First Amendment violations, and they can, then we must accept that censorship can be defined beyond government agencies alone.

Good point.

A friend recently came out, and based on that tend to think “strong transphobia” is fairly unusual in my part of UK. (She’s got about 200 clients of her accountancy business, just 2 decided they needed a new accountant.)

But I think it probably does lead to a “re-balancing of friends” (if that’s right phrase) for all sorts of reasons, not least because person herself is interested in talking about different subjects, less sport, more fashion and cooking.

The situations described in the book seem to be more about existing groups of friends transitioning together, rather than a rebalancing.

It could very well be that people who are struggling with their identity are more likely to congregate together, but it's not a situation of someone coming out as trans and changing their friend group.

[Dalak]

From the interviews I've listened to and read, she seems much more nuanced than her detractors.

Could you explain the nuance you see in "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"?

[Tendrin]

Could you explain the nuance you see in "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"?

Yeah, we'll be waiting a while for that.

I mean, given her entire premsie is false -- that there's a 'spike' in girls identifying as boys, in the first place, I don't see any reason to believe stories about 'entire groups of friends' transitioning either. She's already spewed several falsehoods in the media, after all.

But, sure, Mets, go on giving her the benefit of the doubt while you defend a book that literally has a seduction of the innocent style fearmonger title.

Christ.

[Malvolio]

The "entire groups of friends" probably refers to online groups. I know someone who is transitioning and one of the first things he wanted to do after coming out was to find other people to talk to who were going through the same thing he was. For young people, it's quite easy to find an online group that will serve that purpose. They're not necessarily people you would hang out with in person, just people who can discuss a common experience.

[Tendrin]

The "entire groups of friends" probably refers to online groups. I know someone who is transitioning and one of the first things he wanted to do after coming out was to find other people to talk to who were going through the same thing he was. For young people, it's quite easy to find an online group that will serve that purpose. They're not necessarily people you would hang out with in person, just people who can discuss a common experience.

That sounds likely, yeah. Given the dearth of support options for young trans teens -- something fueled by books like this -- that sounds very likely indeed, and of course it's used as another fearmongering point by her.

[Dalak]

Yeah, we'll be waiting a while for that.

I mean, given her entire premsie is false -- that there's a 'spike' in girls identifying as boys, in the first place, I don't see any reason to believe stories about 'entire groups of friends' transitioning either. She's already spewed several falsehoods in the media, after all.

But, sure, Mets, go on giving her the benefit of the doubt while you defend a book that literally has a seduction of the innocent style fearmonger title.

Christ.

The link Mets used also went into how her premise was based on multiple debunked theories and how the writer was upset that she didn't inform her readers of these things and more, despite the fact that he didn't think there was enough hard data on the subject and so wanted to give her a chance. That's why I want to know what nuance there is that he sees.

[Tendrin]

The link Mets used also went into how her premise was based on multiple debunked theories and how the writer was upset that she didn't inform her readers of these things and more, despite the fact that he didn't think there was enough hard data on the subject and so wanted to give her a chance. That's why I want to know what nuance there is that he sees.

Yeah, I noticed that. Even the '1 in 10' bit Mets is citing is a deeply flawed piece of rhetoric.

[Catlady in training]

Who thinks it's okay to harass a group of people under the pretense of saving some of them?

People who want to question/doubt others about their gender identity instead of taking them at their word that they know who they are, people who suggest to others that they are mentally unstable if they identify a certain way, who want to deny them opportunities to transition if they want to. Under some notion that there might be some "lost soul" in there who is really just confused and is willing to go through the long process of transition, risk losing people in their life, career opportunities and often their physical safety, because.... someone will have to help me here why they would do that? They might think it's cool?