All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[numberthirty]

How is this? Let the area vote in a plebiscite. If they want the monument in question to go it goes to be placed in a museum. Does that sound fair? I think it is a good solution.

Without trying to judge your personal take on the thing...

Let's say that you could create a situation where you could get anything like a majority of folks to agree that the statues/monuments/whatever should wind up in some corner of a museum that is easy to avoid instead of being destroyed.

Straight question, when would it have been the right time to do so?

Decades ago? A quarter century?

You can't wait until the very moment that the things in question have an actual target on them, and then say "Uh, I got this idea..."

[PaulBullion]

That one on your radar, WBE?

Also the ironically named Bob Good in VA.

https://twitter.com/GoodForCongress

The live-tweeting by a local journalist of the drive-through convention that produced the "Plandemic" believing candidate as its winner is something else:

https://twitter.com/AJFriedenberger/...35915481911296

[PaulBullion]

Florida clearly reopened to early, and is experiencing a disaster.




But I am beginning to be more worried about Alabama, because their hospital capacity is so crappy.

This is the covid statistic sorted by number of daily new cases from yesterday:

[shooshoomanjoe]

If a province had put up a statute to him decades ago I'd say if they want to keep it let them. What a lot of people don't understand about my position is that I see history via a cold, dispassionate eye (as a classically trained historian should). I don't let my value judgments enter into the equation, at least I attempt not to do so. If someone asks my opinion on a given person or event I'll tell them, but I'm not for trying to erase history (even a little) by way of tearing down monuments of any kind.

Removing the statues doesn't remove the history. Not sure where that logic comes from.

[PaulBullion]

Iowa Poll: Theresa Greenfield leads Joni Ernst in tight race for U.S. Senate

[Gray Lensman]

If a province had put up a statute to him decades ago I'd say if they want to keep it let them. What a lot of people don't understand about my position is that I see history via a cold, dispassionate eye (as a classically trained historian should). I don't let my value judgments enter into the equation, at least I attempt not to do so. If someone asks my opinion on a given person or event I'll tell them, but I'm not for trying to erase history (even a little) by way of tearing down monuments of any kind.

Another thing you are missing is that the drive to remove Confederate statues is largely coming from the cities where they were erected. It's the state government that is stepping in and passing override legislation requiring the cities to keep them, pay for that upkeep, and banning any plaques that might add context to the things. If the locals were the ones trying to keep them I'd have less of an issue, but it is outsiders forcing them on people who want them gone.

And to respond to an earlier comment of yours, these things are about as far as you can get from the concept of preserving history "warts and all." They were erected to sand away as many warts as possible and buffer a fake version of history. The "Lost Cause" was, and still is, a load of garbage.

[Tendrin]

Another thing you are missing is that the drive to remove Confederate statues is largely coming from the cities where they were erected. It's the state government that is stepping in and passing override legislation requiring the cities to keep them, pay for that upkeep, and banning any plaques that might add context to the things. If the locals were the ones trying to keep them I'd have less of an issue, but it is outsiders forcing them on people who want them gone.

And to respond to an earlier comment of yours, these things are about as far as you can get from the concept of preserving history "warts and all." They were erected to sand away as many warts as possible and buffer a fake version of history. The "Lost Cause" was, and still is, a load of garbage.

Those that didn't go up in the 60s went up in early hey-day of establishing Jim Crow. We all know what they are and who they speak for and what their purpose was. For a historian, Celgress might want to look harder at what constituted the end of reconstruction, the birth of Jim Crow, and Redeemer movement, and the timeline in which those statues were stablished, where, and why.

Anyway, I'd expect a ftuure to condemn the mistakes of the past.

[Gray Lensman]

Those that didn't go up in the 60s went up in early hey-day of establishing Jim Crow. We all know what they are and who they speak for and what their purpose was. For a historian, Celgress might want to look harder at what constituted the end of reconstruction, the birth of Jim Crow, and Redeemer movement, and the timeline in which those statues were stablished, where, and why.

Anyway, I'd expect a ftuure to condemn the mistakes of the past.

For example, there were 4 Confederate monuments in New Orleans - well, technically 3 plus one piece of undisguised racist triumphalism. The most innocent of the 4 was actually the statue of Robert E Lee, as it was erected within a few years of his death, at a time when he was still a revered figure on both the North and the South. The latter for his war record, the former for his after-war actions. The worst was the one commemorating a post election murder spree where the side that lost the vote killed a bunch of people to get their way "ensuring white supremacy in our state", which are the actual words of the damned thing.

I am not sure of the exact percentages, but the overwhelming majority of the memorials to slavery went up either during the Jim Crow era, when people were busy rolling back as many of the rights of black Americans as they could get away with under the law, and during the Civil Rights era when the descendants of those black Americans were fighting to regain what Woodrow Wilson stole from them.

[numberthirty]

Went through yesterday. Doesn't seem like this got a mention. If some of the specifics that WGN Radio reported at three(am) are even close to correct, it's a bit unsettling.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ases-58-deaths

L.A. County reports 1,568 new coronavirus cases, 58 deaths

[sammy_hansen]

For example, there were 4 Confederate monuments in New Orleans - well, technically 3 plus one piece of undisguised racist triumphalism. The most innocent of the 4 was actually the statue of Robert E Lee, as it was erected within a few years of his death, at a time when he was still a revered figure on both the North and the South. The latter for his war record, the former for his after-war actions. The worst was the one commemorating a post election murder spree where the side that lost the vote killed a bunch of people to get their way "ensuring white supremacy in our state", which are the actual words of the damned thing.

I am not sure of the exact percentages, but the overwhelming majority of the memorials to slavery went up either during the Jim Crow era, when people were busy rolling back as many of the rights of black Americans as they could get away with under the law, and during the Civil Rights era when the descendants of those black Americans were fighting to regain what Woodrow Wilson stole from them.

Man, history sounds really tough, what with all the need to look at facts and stuff.

[sammy_hansen]

If a province had put up a statute to him decades ago I'd say if they want to keep it let them. What a lot of people don't understand about my position is that I see history via a cold, dispassionate eye (as a classically trained historian should). I don't let my value judgments enter into the equation, at least I attempt not to do so. If someone asks my opinion on a given person or event I'll tell them, but I'm not for trying to erase history (even a little) by way of tearing down monuments of any kind.

So if a bunch of Baviarians wanted to keep a statue of Hitler that would be sweet according to you?


And I guess I have to ask, why is it that the local population gets to decide? What about the local country?

[Gray Lensman]

So if a bunch of Baviarians wanted to keep a statue of Hitler that would be sweet according to you?


And I guess I have to ask, why is it that the local population gets to decide? What about the local country?

Well, the locals have to look at it every day. To use your example, if there was already a statue of Hitler standing in Bavaria, and the Bavarians wanted it gone, but were forced to keep it by the residents of Saxony, Saarland, and Schleswig-Holstein, I would side more with the residents of Bavaria.

I think we may have Godwinned this discussion, btw.

[numberthirty]

So if a bunch of Baviarians wanted to keep a statue of Hitler that would be sweet according to you?


And I guess I have to ask, why is it that the local population gets to decide? What about the local country?

Jeez...

If a person had just posted something like this...

Man, history sounds really tough, what with all the need to look at facts and stuff.

You might think that they would get why the local country getting to decide might be an issue.

From the book To Die in Chicago: Confederate Prisoners At Camp Douglas 1862-1865...

“Did Wirtz, the commandant of Andersonville prison, ever do anything as inhumanly brutal as was inflicted on Confederate prisoners in Camp Douglas?”

—Sgt. T. B. Clore, Camp Douglas survivor

So, yeah.

There might be a pretty logical reason why it being strictly something that the local country decides on could wind up being a bad idea.

Never mind everything that no one will probably ever know about the way that Native Americans were nearly wiped out because the local country was making the calls on how things would be historically preserved.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Protesters Light Fire Inside Wendy’s Where Atlanta Police Killed Black Man

Angry protesters gathered after Rayshard Brooks was fatally shot by a police officer outside the fast-food restaurant Friday. The officer was fired late Saturday. I'd ask when will the madness end, but I fear there isn't an answer.

**********

Secret Service Finally Admits Using Pepper Spray On Protesters Ahead Of Trump’s Bible Pose

The agency reverses previous claim, days after Park Police did the same. Really? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you! I wonder how the White House will spin THAT?

====================

Meanwhile, you-know-what HASN'T gone away:

Trump Administration Says It’s Not Forcing People Back To Work. Workers Disagree.

Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia is letting states deny unemployment benefits even to people at risk of severe COVID-19 illness.

**********

Doctors Issue Ominous Coronavirus Warnings About Trump Rally: ‘A Setup For Disaster’

“The president is holding a rally in a hot zone. That’s how you propagate the pandemic.” No wonder a waiver had been issued for attendees to sign, absolving the Trump campaign of fault if people came down with coronavirus.

**********

Seattle Man Gets $1.1 Million Coronavirus Hospital Bill: Report

The 70-year-old man said goodbye to his family before miraculously recovering. Anyone who thinks this is a rare case when it comes to billing during the pandemic isn't paying attention.

**********

Florida Hits Biggest Daily COVID-19 Jump As It Gears Up For GOP Convention

Florida’s Gov. Ron DeSantis shrugs off bad coronavirus news as cases rocket 35% in a single day.

[sammy_hansen]

Jeez...

If a person had just posted something like this...



You might think that they would get why the local country getting to decide might be an issue.

From the book To Die in Chicago: Confederate Prisoners At Camp Douglas 1862-1865...



So, yeah.

There might be a pretty logical reason why it being strictly something that the local country decides on could wind up being a bad idea.

Never mind everything that no one will probably ever know about the way that Native Americans were nearly wiped out because the local country was making the calls on how things would be historically preserved.

Do you, like, get sarcasm?