All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[The no face guy]

The problem with trying to argue that historical figures can't be judged by modern standards is that these very same people had absolutely no problem applying their rigid standards of morality to just about every other group of people, and invariably concluded that they didn't measure up and thus it was fair game to rape, pillage, enslave, and murder them, cultural and material context be damned. Of course the founding fathers are responsible for the freedom and living standards that Americans enjoy, because those privileges were only ever possible because of the genocide and slavery that lie at the root of this nation's founding. After all, farming stolen land with slave labor is nothing if not insanely profitable, and the wealth accumulated allowed a small elite class of white Americans to live unbelievably extravagant, if unsustainable, lifestyles. And tearing down a couple of statues won't undo that, or even begin to address the lingering issues that centuries of exploitation have left in our societal fabric, it is at most a form of catharsis for frustrated people, and I think they've earned at least that.

Somehow I knew you would show up. I think you need to read the whole post, as you are helping to make my point. History is something that should be studied scientifically and empirically in a wider context without a political bias or agenda. From that determination, one can strongly argue for the removal of all Conferedate flags and statues, I am sure you would agree, cheers.

[PwrdOn]

Somehow I knew you would show up. I think you need to read the whole post, as you are helping to make my point. History is something that should be studied scientifically and empirically in a wider context without a political bias or agenda. From that determination, one can strongly argue for the removal of all Conferedate flags and statues, I am sure you would agree, cheers.

The problem with that is that the standard American reckoning of history is so blatantly skewed and distorted that any attempt to correct the narrative to something more objective will appear as egregious revisionism. And removing Confederate monuments isn't even doing that, imagine how much push back we would get for trying to rewrite history textbooks and reimagining historical movies and shows to be more accurate and true to life. And hell, when it comes to George Washington we don't even need to do any of that, even the mainstream scholarship around him admits that he was not a particularly brilliant political thinker, was a rather mediocre battlefield commander who lost more battles than he won, and was a harsh and demanding master to his many slaves. His ENTIRE contribution is to just be a charismatic figurehead for the revolution and the early American government, something that has earned him countless statues, monuments, place names, and other random stuff, even if we tear down a couple of those there will still be plenty left.

[The no face guy]

The problem with that is that the standard American reckoning of history is so blatantly skewed and distorted that any attempt to correct the narrative to something more objective will appear as egregious revisionism. And removing Confederate monuments isn't even doing that, imagine how much push back we would get for trying to rewrite history textbooks and reimagining historical movies and shows to be more accurate and true to life. And hell, when it comes to George Washington we don't even need to do any of that, even the mainstream scholarship around him admits that he was not a particularly brilliant political thinker, was a rather mediocre battlefield commander who lost more battles than he won, and was a harsh and demanding master to his many slaves. His ENTIRE contribution is to just be a charismatic figurehead for the revolution and the early American government, something that has earned him countless statues, monuments, place names, and other random stuff, even if we tear down a couple of those there will still be plenty left.

First, you should not be tearing down or vandalizing anything. You should be starting a petition to get a said statue removed. If in your opinion, you think that George Washington is a symbol of genocide than advocate for the removal of his statues on this basis. You will have a lot of work to convince me of that claim, but best of luck to you on convincing others.

Two, history should not be seen as a narrative, those who study it with a phd do so empirically, the good ones without political intent. In the past, history was utilized as a narrative of indoctrination to glorify confederation and American colonialism, now it is used by many (Particularly in critical theory studies) as an indoctrination tool as a narrative to see western history as primarily colonial genocide and conquest. It should be neither. There should be no meta narratives, only facts obtained by journals, artifacts and other primary sources, to determine how society functioned in the past.

[4saken1]

The incarceration rate from 1994 forward would suggest otherwise.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rd-since-2006/

Not to negate your argument or anything, but the Crime Bill which resulted in higher incarceration rates among African Americans isn't as much intentionally a systemic attack on minorities as it was bad just a policy which was implemented in an effort to help Democrats with their image problem of being weak on crime. Ultimately, it was a failure on many levels, but is still anecdotal in the face of statistical evidence which shows that African Americans fare far worse (at least economically) in red states.

[PwrdOn]

First, you should not be tearing down or vandalizing anything. You should be starting a petition to get a said statue removed. If in your opinion, you think that George Washington is a symbol of genocide than advocate for the removal of his statues on this basis. You will have a lot of work to convince me of that claim, but best of luck to you on convincing others.

Two, history should not be seen as a narrative, those who study it with a phd do so empirically, the good ones without political intent. In the past, history was utilized as a narrative of indoctrination to glorify confederation and American colonialism, now it is used by many (Particularly in critical theory studies) as an indoctrination tool as a narrative to see western history as primarily colonial genocide and conquest. It should be neither. There should be no meta narratives, only facts obtained by journals, artifacts and other primary sources, to determine how society functioned in the past.

History has never been just a dry and unopinionated recollection of facts and figures, the narrative component has been there from the start because it's important to understand why all of these events happened and how they are all connected with each other. The reason that the general understanding of American history has changed so much over the years is not because of some liberal conspiracy, but because historians largely came to recognize that much of the way history was presented was just flat out wrong and needed to be revised to be more accurate. The problem with the old conception of history is that, by focusing almost exclusively on the perspectives of a small elite of white plantation owners, you miss out on so much else of what was going on at the time, and so by incorporating more diverse voices we start to paint a more complete, and grimmer, picture.

[The no face guy]

History has never been just a dry and unopinionated recollection of facts and figures, the narrative component has been there from the start because it's important to understand why all of these events happened and how they are all connected with each other. The reason that the general understanding of American history has changed so much over the years is not because of some liberal conspiracy, but because historians largely came to recognize that much of the way history was presented was just flat out wrong and needed to be revised to be more accurate. The problem with the old conception of history is that, by focusing almost exclusively on the perspectives of a small elite of white plantation owners, you miss out on so much else of what was going on at the time, and so by incorporating more diverse voices we start to paint a more complete, and grimmer, picture.

That is not what I am arguing. History should be read historically as a science, not as a political narrative. History departments for the most part do this, departments in sociology and social anthropology that utilize critical theory, unfortunately do not, they narrow politics down to a political narrative for their own purposes. These are usually done by politically charged professors who abandon scientific objectivity for subjectivism, to match their own political credo. As noted before, studies rooted in the Western Marxist tradition provide a good critical analyst of capitalist society but they are not very objective, and are usually politically motivated. The historical cannon today covers a wide variety of topics. One could easily argue that the study of race and gender inequality in history gets primacy over other topics, which is not a bad thing, I however would argue that all fields should get equal coverage to ensure a more holistic picture.

[PaulBullion]

So he deserves to die?

And Spider-Man is your avatar? Sheesh.

With great power, come great donuts.

[PaulBullion]

**** me. Do you know anything? Do you get how much Republicans cut taxes that destroy social services? Do you get how much money was wasted on blowing the **** out of Iraq?

Again, I seriously can’t believe you use Spider-man as an avatar. It’s disgusting. People please stop feeding the white supremacist troll.

Hey, I'm the one looking at several pages of back and forth with an ignored poster.

[PaulBullion]

Bill Barr is trying to get rid of the head of the SDNY Office. He tried by telling the news that Berman was voluntarily stepping down. Berman put out a state saying 'this was the first I heard of it, and no, I'm not stepping down. Also all investigations will continue as normal, without any interruptions.'

Then someone pointed out on twitter that Berman can't be fired. He is an 'Acting' head, and according to the rules, he can't be fired until his permanent replacement approved by Congress.

Who had "botched Friday Night Massacre" on their fascism bingo cards?

[numberthirty]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rd-since-2006/

Not to negate your argument or anything, but the Crime Bill which resulted in higher incarceration rates among African Americans isn't as much intentionally a systemic attack on minorities as it was bad just a policy which was implemented in an effort to help Democrats with their image problem of being weak on crime. Ultimately, it was a failure on many levels, but is still anecdotal in the face of statistical evidence which shows that African Americans fare far worse (at least economically) in red states.

Which none of what you said does.

When you stole a whole vault full of potential income from a group of people and left a bunch of them with some sort of a felony conviction on their records which will make it harder for them to earn a decent living, it doesn't really matter if you did it intentionally or not.

Past that?

You said "Under Democrats..." pretty clearly.

After that, you put a link to something that pretty clearly says "Since 2006..." Take a second to consider how long Clinton was President after signing the 1994 crime bill.

[PaulBullion]

The world saw the worst increase in new SARS-Cov-2 infections yesterday, led by spikes in the US (+33,500 new cases) and Brazil (+55,000 new cases, a dramatic, horrific number). Brazil became the 2nd country to hit one million cases. Trump and Bolsonaro: Worst leaders in the world.

China has shut down areas in and around the capital after a return of new infections.

Wear your masks. Stay home. Keep your distance. Vote blue no matter what.

[PaulBullion]

And of course, pretend-BernieBro Joe Rogan is against masks.

[sammy_hansen]

That is not what I am arguing. History should be read historically as a science, not as a political narrative. History departments for the most part do this, departments in sociology and social anthropology that utilize critical theory, unfortunately do not, they narrow politics down to a political narrative for their own purposes. These are usually done by politically charged professors who abandon scientific objectivity for subjectivism, to match their own political credo. As noted before, studies rooted in the Western Marxist tradition provide a good critical analyst of capitalist society but they are not very objective, and are usually politically motivated. The historical cannon today covers a wide variety of topics. One could easily argue that the study of race and gender inequality in history gets primacy over other topics, which is not a bad thing, I however would argue that all fields should get equal coverage to ensure a more holistic picture.

History always has a narrative. It’s never going to be a cold recitation of the facts because the facts are written by the winners, or in some cases, losers who don’t want to face up to the consequences of their actions. Like American colonists with Native Americans or the Japanese history books that minimize their atrocities in WW2. Or how everyone sought to blame big and powerful Germany for the Great War. Hell, what’s gonna be written about the illegal war launched by George W Bush and the neocons that killed hundreds of thousands and spawned an evil terrorist death cult? Mission Accomplished? It’s simply extremely naive to think political context plays no part in history.

Also, the problem with your point of following “laws” is that often laws only serve a selected group of people. I mean, for conservatives to be all in favor of individual liberty they’re still very happy to denigrate and discriminate against queer and trans people, just to name a few, even today. What’s the history going to conclude about that? That noble Americans were upholding “family values” or bigoted reactionaries were treating some people as inferior human beings?

The people you’re seeking to honor, Washington et al, agreed and legislated that enslaved persons only counted as three-fifths of a person. That was the law. If they broke that law and tried to escape to freedom then they were hunted down. When is it okay to disobey and unjust law? Why are these statues deserving of more protection than human beings? And now your saying that folks copping discrimination and violence and murder have to abide by the laws of their oppressors? Come on.

It’s as if property still has more value that a human being.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Bill Barr is trying to get rid of the head of the SDNY Office. He tried by telling the news that Berman was voluntarily stepping down. Berman put out a state saying 'this was the first I heard of it, and no, I'm not stepping down. Also all investigations will continue as normal, without any interruptions.'

Then someone pointed out on twitter that Berman can't be fired. He is an 'Acting' head, and according to the rules, he can't be fired until his permanent replacement approved by Congress.

This story has gotten a lot of juice nationally. Stevie Wonder could see why Droopy Dogg Barr tried to ax Berman: he was investigating the dirty dealings of Trump and Rantin' Rudy regarding the Ukraine debacle.

====================

The Worst Of The Coronavirus Pandemic Is Still To Come

As the world’s death toll closes in on half a million, cases in Brazil are still accelerating and infections in India may not peak until November.

**********

TSA Worsened Coronavirus Pandemic, Whistleblower Says

A federal watchdog has ordered an investigation into the Transportation Security Administration’s response to COVID-19.

**********

Navy Upholds Firing Of Carrier Captain In Virus Outbreak

Capt. Brett Crozier was fired after urging faster action to protect his crew from a coronavirus outbreak. As a retired sailor, I'm disappointed with this ruling. Crozier acted to save the lives of his crew and was **** on by superiors as a result.

**********

In non-coronavirus news:

Trump Sets The Stage For Mayhem At Tulsa Rally

The president said he wanted to “dominate” American citizens. He now sees an opportunity. Between the risk of fresh coronavirus infections from the gathering and protests, this is going to be a dumpster fire.

**********

Pressed Repeatedly To Say ‘Black Lives Matter,’ Mike Pence Says ‘All Lives Matter’

A Philadelphia news anchor asked the vice president point-blank on Friday — Juneteenth — whether he’d be willing to say the words.

**********

Susan Rice Explains Exactly Why Donald Trump’s White House Is ‘Racist To Its Core’

The Obama era national security adviser said Trump’s GOP backers in the Senate should be consigned to “the trash heap of history.”

[Gray Lensman]

History always has a narrative. It’s never going to be a cold recitation of the facts because the facts are written by the winners, or in some cases, losers who don’t want to face up to the consequences of their actions. Like American colonists with Native Americans or the Japanese history books that minimize their atrocities in WW2. Or how everyone sought to blame big and powerful Germany for the Great War. Hell, what’s gonna be written about the illegal war launched by George W Bush and the neocons that killed hundreds of thousands and spawned an evil terrorist death cult? Mission Accomplished? It’s simply extremely naive to think political context plays no part in history.

Also, the problem with your point of following “laws” is that often laws only serve a selected group of people. I mean, for conservatives to be all in favor of individual liberty they’re still very happy to denigrate and discriminate against queer and trans people, just to name a few, even today. What’s the history going to conclude about that? That noble Americans were upholding “family values” or bigoted reactionaries were treating some people as inferior human beings?

The people you’re seeking to honor, Washington et al, agreed and legislated that enslaved persons only counted as three-fifths of a person. That was the law. If they broke that law and tried to escape to freedom then they were hunted down. When is it okay to disobey and unjust law? Why are these statues deserving of more protection than human beings? And now your saying that folks copping discrimination and violence and murder have to abide by the laws of their oppressors? Come on.

It’s as if property still has more value that a human being.

Washington's legacy is....complicated. On the plus side, he led the army that held on long enough to win independence (he didn't actually win a whole lot, but he kept the army together and a threat in the field), and his post-military career was instrumental in keeping the new nation a republic rather than setting up a new monarchy.

On the other hand, he was so brutal to the Iroquois that they named him Conotocaurius (Town Destroyer) after ordering a punitive expedition against all tribes of the nation in retaliation for some of them siding with the British - even attacking the tribes that had sided with the Revolution. Plus, he knew history would turn against slavery but was unwilling to part with his personal ownership of fellow human beings during his lifetime, only freeing them after his death (technically the death of his widow, but she was afraid that those terms would encourage them to hasten her demise so she freed them early).

My own history teacher at the time didn't spend much on Washington and slavery (a footnote about his freeing them in his will) but spent more on the Indian campaigns he ordered, probably as a result of my school district being right in the middle of what used to be Iroquois land.