All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[CSTowle]

I completely disagree with some of those assertions (war crimes, stealing land, running an apartheid theocracy). Do you realize that they are literally surrounded by countries who want to destroy them, while at the same time having a significant number of internal Arabs who routinely attack and murder Jews (there's been a lot in recent news about that), and not even including Palestinians and their Hamas terror group/ Gaza rulers?

I realize the second set of things, and simultaneously realize the first set of things that you disagree with. Shooting children, cutting off power to Palestinian areas, bulldozing homes (in order to do the second thing on the list you disagree with) even if people are in the way, are just some of the things Israel's defense forces are guilty of. Stealing land can only be denied if you deny the borders of Israel itself and believe their borders are wherever they declare them to be. It's commonly talked about on the news, including your BBC. As for apartheid, allowing some to work and live as second-class (as non-Jewish/non-Hebrew) citizens is again undeniable if you're not reflexively denying any criticism of Israel or the facts on the ground. This is known, complained about in most of the civilized world (outside of Israel and the US), and continually allowed to happen because we enable them. As to an ethno-theocratic state, you said yourself they're the Jewish homeland with Jewish rule. I don't see where there's room for denial, or grounds for pretending to be a democracy.

Which of those things do you think they are not doing? If you concede they are doing them, are you saying that because they're surrounded they have every right to be bad actors because it's in "self defense"?

Here left wing has two very different definitions, as it applies to both the spectrum between center-left and far left, as well as the policies and individuals who fall between center-left and far left.

The article about activist organizations was about how they're going with a particular type of messaging, which fits the definition of far-left as refusing to prioritize or compromise.



Russia, North Korea, Israel

One of these things is not like the other.

Not when it comes to international and UN condemnation of their actions. Only when it comes to discussions of those actions in the US or Israel. That's what the kids call a "double standard".

[hyped78]

I realize the second set of things, and simultaneously realize the first set of things that you disagree with. Shooting children, cutting off power to Palestinian areas, bulldozing homes (in order to do the second thing on the list you disagree with) even if people are in the way, are just some of the things Israel's defense forces are guilty of. Stealing land can only be denied if you deny the borders of Israel itself and believe their borders are wherever they declare them to be. It's commonly talked about on the news, including your BBC. As for apartheid, allowing some to work and live as second-class (as non-Jewish/non-Hebrew) citizens is again undeniable if you're not reflexively denying any criticism of Israel or the facts on the ground. This is known, complained about in most of the civilized world (outside of Israel and the US), and continually allowed to happen because we enable them. As to an ethno-theocratic state, you said yourself they're the Jewish homeland with Jewish rule. I don't see where there's room for denial, or grounds for pretending to be a democracy.

Which of those things do you think they are not doing? If you concede they are doing them, are you saying that because they're surrounded they have every right to be bad actors because it's in "self defense"?

I think they kill Palestinians as Palestinians/ Arabs also kill Jews. It's tit for tat, unfortunately, and I don't think it's fair - at all - to attribute all the killing to Israel. In fact, during the Intifadas, when Israel shoots rockets at Gaza or the West Bank they warn the Palestinian Authorities where they're going to strike so civilians can get out of the way. Palestinians are known to use human shields. And haven't you seen news or footage of Arab Israelis burning Synagogues and Jewish owned businesses in places like Lod and other "mixed cities"?
Usually, when missiles are fired if you look closely at the timeline (we can discuss specific recent examples, if you want to), you'll see that Hamas and Hezbollah shoot missiles first, the latter from Lebanon. Hamas is a terrorist organization and Hezbollah is another one, created/ supported by Iran. Almost always, Israel only shoots missiles in response.

Stealing land - the current/ latest borders of Israel were defined during the Yom Kippur War in 1973, the fourth Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs launched a surprise attack against Israel on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur. The previous borders were a result of the 1948 Arab-Israel war (there's more conflicts in between, but I'm trying not to write a history thesis here). Again, these are examples of Israel being attacked/ threatened by coalitions of surrounding countries and the results of these conflicts have changed the borders in different places. The West Bank and Gaza, for example, were only occupied by Israel as a result of the Six-day war in 1967 (they also occupied the Sinai and the Golan Heights).

"As for apartheid, allowing some to work and live as second-class (as non-Jewish/non-Hebrew) citizens" - I think you're confused, as officially the Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights (this is written in law, I can share sources), the only major difference is that Arab citizens of Israel do not have to serve in the IDF (but they can, even if they mostly choose not to), unlike Jewish Israelis. There were restrictions when Israel was founded but those have been removed (e.g. separated schools, labor laws).
There are several Arab Israelis who have worked on the Supreme Court, the Foreign Service, some are Ambassadors, in Civil Service, while others are Judges in lower courts, Mayors or doctors in Israel's healthcare system (NHI). I can search for a list of names to demonstrate this, if needed.

I think it's important to distinguish:
- The Arab citizens of Israel, who are ~20% of the population, possess the same rights as Jewish Israelis under the law. The recent assassinations of Orthodox Jews in Israel were (all?) carried out by Arab citizens of Israel, not by Palestinians.
- They are distinct from most Palestinians in the West Bank, who are governed by the Palestinian Authority, and Palestinians in Gaza, who are ruled by Hamas, as well as (most) Arab residents of East Jerusalem who have more restricted rights.

Now, separately, the reason why Israel doesn't give citizenship to all Arabs (Palestinians, as per the distinction above; but Palestinians have their own separate governments) within its borders is simply because, the day when they recognize everyone as Israeli full-fledged citizens, the state of Israel and the Jewish homeland will cease to exist - as Jews will quickly become a minority within Israel (~5 million Palestinians + ~2 million Israeli Arabs vs. about ~7 million Jewish Israelis and birth rate %s are higher for Arabs).
Recently, an Islamist party entered a government coalition for the first time ever, the Ra'Am (United Arab List) - demographics and political power are a huge risk to the future of Israel. This is widely known and debated. What would you do if you were them? Arab parties have 10 of the 120 seats in the Knesset.

There is a more complex situation with the Palestinians who reside in East Jerusalem, after the 1967 War, but I wouldn't get into that.

Israel is a democracy, they have elections and, as stated, even had an Islamic party in the government coalition which recently fell. The same can't be said for most Arab nations. I've also mentioned that they have a far higher Human Development Index that Arab countries, as well as a human rights track record.
HDI data here: https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/hum...#/indicies/HDI

Do Arab Israelis, as a minority, face discrimination and have lower income than Israeli Jews? Sure, that's undeniable and unfortunate... but isn't it the same with minorities in the US and elsewhere? (also unfortunately)

I am not saying that Israel doesn't do "bad things" or that they don't have blood on their hands. But to consider them the "evil guys" and Arabs the "good guys" is quite naive and, quite frankly, doesn't meet the test of reality. I'm happy to continue this discussion, though; I've tried to keep this post "short" for now.

[Kirby101]

The fascists on the Supreme Court also laid the groundwork to end Rights for the Disabled.

The Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade sparks other worries

In Dobbs, the Supreme Court overruled precedent to conclude the “Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision, including … the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.”

As rights advocates quickly noted afterward, the nation’s most significant civil rights victories for people with disabilities, set forth in the court’s 1999 decision in Olmstead v. L.C., could fall under the precedent-nixing legal framework advanced in the abortion case.

[scourge]

The fascists on the Supreme Court also laid the groundwork to end Rights for the Disabled.

The Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade sparks other worries

Just more evidence that the conservatives/GOP are nothing but anti-democratic BS. They don't belong in any position of power or authority.

[hyped78]

The fascists on the Supreme Court also laid the groundwork to end Rights for the Disabled.

The Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade sparks other worries

That's an opinion, it's not news or a fact. Correct?

How do you go from "could fall under" to "the fascists laid the groundwork"?

[hyped78]

Just more evidence that the conservatives/GOP are nothing but anti-democratic BS. They don't belong in any position of power or authority.

It's not "evidence" until it actually happens. Until then it's rumor and speculation, which is what that article is ("could fall under"). I guess you didn't even read the article, just reacted to the sensationalist "the fascists..."

[Jack Dracula]

It seems like the far-left, far-right debate and who falls where is pointless until you have a clearly defined spectrum.
Without that, it's all personal opinion.

[hyped78]

It seems like the far-left, far-right debate and who falls where is pointless until you have a clearly defined spectrum.
Without that, it's all personal opinion.

Yep, very true. When I say that Bernie Sanders is "far left" and Marjorie Taylor Greene is "far right" it's just my opinion

[Kirby101]

That's an opinion, it's not news or a fact. Correct?

How do you go from "could fall under" to "the fascists laid the groundwork"?

Here is my response to you:

[hyped78]

Here is my response to you:

So you're basically saying that I'm correct. You just did the same thing Fox News does every day - you took an opinion article (not news, not facts; and the article even says "could" as you quoted) and spun it to say "the fascists have laid the groundwork (to attack the Disabled)". That's not serious.

[Mister Mets]

The fascists on the Supreme Court also laid the groundwork to end Rights for the Disabled.

The Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade sparks other worries

A key distinction is that Olmstead v. L.C. was based on law.

Just more evidence that the conservatives/GOP are nothing but anti-democratic BS. They don't belong in any position of power or authority.

It's a bit of a leap to go from speculation to certainty.

That's an opinion, it's not news or a fact. Correct?

How do you go from "could fall under" to "the fascists laid the groundwork"?

The original piece isn't opinion as much as it seems to be people trying to figure out the implications of a view of the world that they don't share.

This isn't a conservative jurist saying that a decision was ruled incorrectly, as much as it is activists worried about what someone else may think.

I realize the second set of things, and simultaneously realize the first set of things that you disagree with. Shooting children, cutting off power to Palestinian areas, bulldozing homes (in order to do the second thing on the list you disagree with) even if people are in the way, are just some of the things Israel's defense forces are guilty of. Stealing land can only be denied if you deny the borders of Israel itself and believe their borders are wherever they declare them to be. It's commonly talked about on the news, including your BBC. As for apartheid, allowing some to work and live as second-class (as non-Jewish/non-Hebrew) citizens is again undeniable if you're not reflexively denying any criticism of Israel or the facts on the ground. This is known, complained about in most of the civilized world (outside of Israel and the US), and continually allowed to happen because we enable them. As to an ethno-theocratic state, you said yourself they're the Jewish homeland with Jewish rule. I don't see where there's room for denial, or grounds for pretending to be a democracy.

Which of those things do you think they are not doing? If you concede they are doing them, are you saying that because they're surrounded they have every right to be bad actors because it's in "self defense"?



Not when it comes to international and UN condemnation of their actions. Only when it comes to discussions of those actions in the US or Israel. That's what the kids call a "double standard".

If you're comparing Israel to Russia and North Korea in terms of international condemnation, Israel would need to be on the same level.

Because Israel is called out more often than other countries, they actually need to be significantly worse for this to be anything but bias that should be called out immediately and unambiguously.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...-rest-of-world

There is an argument that Israel views itself as a western democracy, and should be held to that standard, but this should be made explicitly to make it clear that Israel is superior to its neighbors, and many of the countries that condemn it in the UN.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Griner sentenced to 9 years in Russian prison:
https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id...sion-smuggling

She'll have to wait for the US-Russia prisoner swap.

Over/under on how long Griner will have to wait: eighteen months, then Putin will greenlight said swap. Perhaps longer if Vlad decides to be pissy over U.S. (indirect) involvement in Ukraine.

[Rzerox21xx]

https://twitter.com/Booker4KY/status...11520270913536

The FBI has arrested four LMPD officers involved in the murder of Breonna Taylor.

Accountability is long overdue. We will never stop saying her name.

[Kirby101]

So you're basically saying that I'm correct. You just did the same thing Fox News does every day - you took an opinion article (not news, not facts; and the article even says "could" as you quoted) and spun it to say "the fascists have laid the groundwork (to attack the Disabled)". That's not serious.

Let me answer you this way:

[JackDaw]

Yep, very true. When I say that Bernie Sanders is "far left" and Marjorie Taylor Greene is "far right" it's just my opinion

Surprised you regard Bernie Sanders as “far left”.

I can see why he’s regarded on US scene as such…but I think just looking at his policies, he’d be regarded as fairly moderate in most Western European countries…and in UK terms I’d see him as being a good fit for mainstream Labour Party, less leftwing than Jeremy Corbyn, with more constructive well thought out policies.

What specifically makes you think he’s far left??