All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Tendrin]

Or both are dangerous, intolerant and anti democratic.

And right on cue, you'd be incredibly wrong on the basis of power and platform alone. No one is owed a platform to spout hate. Kiwi farms is a greater threat to liberty and free speech rights of individuals than a bunch of college students shouting down Ben Shapiro when he's invited to spout the same transphobia at their college. That you can pretend that these things are in any way the same speaks to your deeply limited understanding of these things. Nobody's driving Ben Shapiro into hiding. Dave Chapelle hasn't had to flee the country. These things aren't equivalent. It's not even close.

And sorry, but what do you mean by “the decades long moral panic about pedophilia”. Not criticizing, just trying to understand what you mean by that, considering that pedophilia (the action of) is arguably the most disgusting crime there can possibly be. But, again, just trying to understand what you mean.

That child sex abuse is a horrific crime isn't really in question, (unless you're a libertarian) but you don't have to look further than pizzagate, qanon, its roots in the 1980s moral panic over 'ritual child sex abuse' from which it descends to understand that when the way we talk about dealing with sex crimes becomes who can conjure up the most violent solution to apply to supposed pedophiles that elements of a moral panic have long taken hold, and that the violence we're willing to apply to a class that obstensibly deserves it will in turn be applied to those who deserve it less, or who can be portrayed as a similar threat to children, will naturally occur. Moral panics, like other cycles of outrage, tend to broaden their scope over time until they burn themselves out, but the fire does a lot of damage to people along the way, even if it starts born of a real concern, and a real fear.

I think you can draw a line between the normalization of violence directed at a class we've made it acceptable to talk about shooting or throwing in woodchippers slowly and 'I hope they get raped in prison' stuff to the portrayal of gay teachers being out as 'seuxalization of children and therefore a form of pedophilia and grooming, and therefore okay to threaten with violence'.

[hyped78]

And right on cue, you'd be incredibly wrong on the basis of power and platform alone. No one is owed a platform to spout hate. Kiwi farms is a greater threat to liberty and free speech rights of individuals than a bunch of college students shouting down Ben Shapiro when he's invited to spout the same transphobia at their college. That you can pretend that these things are in any way the same speaks to your deeply limited understanding of these things. Nobody's driving Ben Shapiro into hiding. Dave Chapelle hasn't had to flee the country. These things aren't equivalent. It's not even close.


That child sex abuse is a horrific crime isn't really in question, (unless you're a libertarian) but you don't have to look further than pizzagate, qanon, its roots in the 1980s moral panic over 'ritual child sex abuse' from which it descends to understand that when the way we talk about dealing with sex crimes becomes who can conjure up the most violent solution to apply to supposed pedophiles that elements of a moral panic have long taken hold, and that the violence we're willing to apply to a class that obstensibly deserves it will in turn be applied to those who deserve it less, or who can be portrayed as a similar threat to children, will naturally occur. Moral panics, like other cycles of outrage, tend to broaden their scope over time until they burn themselves out, but the fire does a lot of damage to people along the way, even if it starts born of a real concern, and a real fear.

I think you can draw a line between the normalization of violence directed at a class we've made it acceptable to talk about shooting or throwing in woodchippers slowly and 'I hope they get raped in prison' stuff to the portrayal of gay teachers being out as 'seuxalization of children and therefore a form of pedophilia and grooming, and therefore okay to threaten with violence'.

Agree to disagree. You mention Dave Chappelle (if it were me criticizing Chappelle I would’ve already been called an islamophobe) - he was attacked on stage by a bisexual man some weeks ago:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ring-rcna30057

I hope you don’t think this type of action is OK? Or calling Drew Barrymore a racist all over social media and asking for her to get “cancelled” because she filmed herself “frollicking” in the rain.

I criticize intolerance and hatred from both sides; biased people only criticize one side or the other, as if one form of intolerance is more “acceptable” over another one.

Understood on the point about pedophilia and moral panic, thanks for clarifying. Perhaps the best way to frame is not “moral panic” because what you described, e.g. pizzagate, are outright lies and fabrications.

[worstblogever]

Also, most of the folks on the right screaming about "grooming" and "pedophiles" supported Denny Hastert when he was Speaker, were trying to elevate the Duggar family as their ideal of family values, supported Roy Moore, support Trump, don't seem to notice 3 separate members of the 2016 Trump campaign's state chairmen were arrested for child pornography or soliciting sex from minors, support Matt Gaetz...

So forgive me if I don't regard the GOP's accusations of secret cabals of child molesters as admissions.

[Tendrin]

Agree to disagree. You mention Dave Chappelle - he was attacked on stage by a bisexual man some weeks ago:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ring-rcna30057

Yes, I remember, and his private security handled it. It's still not the same as a random person being targetted by an internet foruum with relentless personal harassment, with none of the attendant power or platform or public face to deal with it. One person is at a far greater risk of being *actually* silenced. And not wanting companies to give a muilti millionaire a platform to normalize hate against transgender people isn't really even closely the same thing as to tracking one person across continents to identify their location because they're a trans-activist and making multiple attempts on their life through swatting. Kiwifarms has caused suicides. Criticizing Dave Chapelle and wanting him to stop targetting trans people hasn't.

I hope you don’t think this type of action is OK? Or calling Drew Barrymore a racist all over social media because she filmed herself “frollicking” in the rain?

This is rank whataboutism.

I criticize intolerance and hatred from both sides, biased people only criticize one side or the other.

A willingness to criticize 'both sides' is fine and dandy, but without an ability to keep things in perspective on the basis of power, threat, and consequence its useless.

[Tendrin]

Also, most of the folks on the right screaming about "grooming" and "pedophiles" supported Denny Hastert when he was Speaker, were trying to elevate the Duggar family as their ideal of family values, supported Roy Moore, support Trump, don't seem to notice 3 separate members of the 2016 Trump campaign's state chairmen were arrested for child pornography or soliciting sex from minors, support Matt Gaetz...

So forgive me if I don't regard the GOP's accusations of secret cabals of child molesters as admissions.

I may just have to repost a link to Cajsa's list.

[hyped78]

Yes, I remember, and his private security handled it. It's still not the same as a random person being targetted by an internet foruum with relentless personal harassment, with none of the attendant power or platform or public face to deal with it. One person is at a far greater risk of being *actually* silenced. And not wanting companies to give a muilti millionaire a platform to normalize hate against transgender people isn't really even closely the same thing as to tracking one person across continents to identify their location because they're a trans-activist and making multiple attempts on their life through swatting. Kiwifarms has caused suicides. Criticizing Dave Chapelle and wanting him to stop targetting trans people hasn't.

This is rank whataboutism.

A willingness to criticize 'both sides' is fine and dandy, but without an ability to keep things in perspective on the basis of power, threat, and consequence its useless.

Ok, more on Dave Chappelle. Are you aware that Chappelle had a trans friend that the woke mob drove to suicide, Daphne Dorman?
https://deadline.com/2021/10/dave-ch...an-1234853511/

Are you ok with that? Is that “rank whataboutism” as well, then?

[Tendrin]

Ok, more on Dave Chappelle. Are you aware that Chappelle had a trans friend that the woke drove to suicide?
https://deadline.com/2021/10/dave-ch...an-1234853511/

Are you ok with that?

Yeah, his 'some of my best friends are trans' story.

Would you let a white comedian who made bigoted jokes about black people to hide behind the body of a deceased black guy who he was friends with in the same way you're (and he) are using Dorman's corpse to do so?

Chapelle's words are Chapelle's words, and there's a lot of nuance in the way he talks about Dorman, and a lot of is pretty unfortunate. I have zero doubt they were friends. I also have zero doubt that Chapelle never really fully understood her.

As for the 'woke driving her to suciide', that's one thing about the way trans people tear each other apart on the internet over infringements. It's a ... complicated part of the subculture. The fates of Ana Mardoll, Isabell Falls, Zinnia Jones, Emily Gorcenski, and others are all linked, in the way that trans women will attack trans women. It's ... sadly extremely common. Even Keffals, the subject of the above article, wasn't immune, with her having been accused of racism towards another trans woman, and having that be used against her. Ana Mardoll's employment at Lockheed Martin as a sub-conctractor with limited hours and family connections was exposed by Kiwifarms and much of the trans community (and other social justice parties opposed to the Military Industrial Complex) turned on her and drove her off twitter. There's no perfect people, no perfect victim, just messy people living messy lives on the margins, Dorman included. Fascists groups like Kiwi Farms gladly take advantage of this tendency.

Also 'are you okay with that'? I mean, come on, really? Please. You really can't help the whataboutism. It's not really about Chapelle, though he's just a useful example as to how there's a huge gulf between your idea of what the consequences are and what the consequences *actually* are.

[Username taken]

Ok, more on Dave Chappelle. Are you aware that Chappelle had a trans friend that the woke mob drove to suicide, Daphne Dorman?
https://deadline.com/2021/10/dave-ch...an-1234853511/

Are you ok with that? Is that “rank whataboutism” as well, then?

Where does it say in that story that she was driven to suicide?

I actually clicked on the link expecting some discussion on it but there’s nothing there to suggest that’s what happened.

I know Daphne got criticism from the trans community that really isn’t much different from the black community criticizing Candace Owens or Larry Elder. That isn’t a “woke mob” criticizing, it’s people from a certain subculture taking on topics within said subculture and addressing public individuals in that area that are perceived as problematic.

And that’s a far cry from organized groups attacking trans people or people like Matt Walsh or Tucker Carlson committing stochastic terrorism by literally threatening and encouraging their followers to attack children’s hospitals because of “trans panic”.

[Username taken]

Yes, I remember, and his private security handled it. It's still not the same as a random person being targetted by an internet foruum with relentless personal harassment, with none of the attendant power or platform or public face to deal with it. One person is at a far greater risk of being *actually* silenced. And not wanting companies to give a muilti millionaire a platform to normalize hate against transgender people isn't really even closely the same thing as to tracking one person across continents to identify their location because they're a trans-activist and making multiple attempts on their life through swatting. Kiwifarms has caused suicides. Criticizing Dave Chapelle and wanting him to stop targetting trans people hasn't.



This is rank whataboutism.



A willingness to criticize 'both sides' is fine and dandy, but without an ability to keep things in perspective on the basis of power, threat, and consequence its useless.

Yeah, a random person on Twitter criticizing Drew Barrymore for frolicking in the rain is very, very different than organized groups of individuals going after and in many cases advocating violence against folks they don’t agree with.

It’s kind of like how some people were desperately trying to equate “antifa” to the “proud boys”. It all fell apart when it became increasingly clear that antifa isn’t a thing.

[Tendrin]

Yeah, a random person on Twitter criticizing Drew Barrymore for frolicking in the rain is very, very different than organized groups of individuals going after and in many cases advocating violence against folks they don’t agree with.

It’s kind of like how some people were desperately trying to equate “antifa” to the “proud boys”. It all fell apart when it became increasingly clear that antifa isn’t a thing.

Yeah, and that person was roundly mocked anyway for attacking Drew.

[scourge]

‘Literally kidnapping’: Teens taken against their will to boarding schools across US









I always thought of Boarding School as a place for the rich and famous to send their kids, this is not that, this is crazy.

The boarding schools...which I'm immediately suspicious of for being involved in any of this...aren't even the worst of it. There's also the "troubled teen camps" which are essentially prisons that torture and mentally abuse kids the parents have kidnapped out there.

[Tendrin]

I think we can all understand WPP a little better now:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20220901.html

Philadelphia was ranked as the rudest city in the United States in a recent study by the jabronis over at Preply, a language learning app, who said they surveyed 1,500 residents of the 30 largest metro areas in the nation and asked them to rate the rudeness of their own cities.

Obviously, they’ve never seen the iconic Philly billboard that read: “Philadelphia isn’t as bad as Philadelphians say it is.”

[hyped78]

A trans man was murdered at Pride in Münster, the town where I went to university. He had defended some lesbians against verbal attacks and was beaten so badly he later succumbed to his injuries. His name was Malte.

I was also reading about that. Frightening and appalling - good that they caught the killer.

Where does it say in that story that she was driven to suicide?

I actually clicked on the link expecting some discussion on it but there’s nothing there to suggest that’s what happened.

I know Daphne got criticism from the trans community that really isn’t much different from the black community criticizing Candace Owens or Larry Elder. That isn’t a “woke mob” criticizing, it’s people from a certain subculture taking on topics within said subculture and addressing public individuals in that area that are perceived as problematic.

And that’s a far cry from organized groups attacking trans people or people like Matt Walsh or Tucker Carlson committing stochastic terrorism by literally threatening and encouraging their followers to attack children’s hospitals because of “trans panic”.

More info here - https://meaww.com/daphne-dorman-kin-...tq-ally-550697
She got bullied and harassed on social media by the LGBTQ+ community for defending Chappelle and being friends with him.
I brought up this example because Tendrin mentioned Chappelle. Again, if it was me criticizing Chappelle, folks here would’ve already called me a bigot for criticizing a black muslim.
I personally don’t care about Chappelle - I don’t think he’s funny.

Yeah, and that person was roundly mocked anyway for attacking Drew.

Of course she was - but mainly by the side of the spectrum that you oppose. She actually got a lot of TikTok support from “woke accounts”

[worstblogever]

I think we can all understand WPP a little better now:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20220901.html

I adore when WPP gets salty, because the people the salt gets poured on are almost always truly worthy of it. It's why he's one of my favorite posters.

[Username taken]

I was also reading about that. Frightening and appalling - good that they caught the killer.



More info here - https://meaww.com/daphne-dorman-kin-...tq-ally-550697
She got bullied and harassed on social media by the LGBTQ+ community for defending Chappelle and being friends with him.
I brought up this example because Tendrin mentioned Chappelle. Again, if it was me criticizing Chappelle, folks here would’ve already called me a bigot for criticizing a black muslim.



Of course she was - but mainly by the side of the spectrum that you oppose. She actually got a lot of TikTok support from “woke accounts”

Libs of Tiktok took one (1) person’s comment and turned into something else.

There wasn’t any “group” of people talking, it’s just one (1) person. From a purely statistical point of view, i think it’s safe to say that one random person’s bizarre opinion isn’t in anyway a reflection of a greater political movement. Especially when we don’t even know this individual’s politics.

The problem with this entire scenario is libs of tiktok (another very problematic right-wing group) was going fishing for comments and then amplifying the whole thing. And as Tendrin pointed out, almost everyone defended Barrymore.