All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[thwhtGuardian]

Neither the Taliban or ISIS have attacked American soil, that I can recall. Though I would note that the majority of their attacks on US forces are calculated to draw fire back on civilians.

Why is it okay for Hamas et all to attack civilians in a manner that causes retaliation to fall on civilians, to hide among civilians, but not okay for Israel to attack them because it causes civilian deaths?

Why isn't Hamas held to some basic standard?

Because responsible nations are supposed to be more restrained and offer measured and targeted responses than terrorist organizations.

The Israeli government has killed somewhere north of 8,000 civilians in less than a month. That sounds like a big number, but it's worse than that when you put it in perspective: over the course of nearly twenty years the US government killed around 200,000 civilians in Iraq, which means in less than a month the Israeli government has killed nearly as many civilians as the US did per year in Iraq.

That's just crazily disproportionate.

[Dalak]

There's no reason to assume that percentages of students identifying as trans, genderfluid, agender, nonbinary, etc. is significantly lower with females than males. That specific study shows more trans men than trans women, which may fit the higher overall ratio of females to males in colleges. Other data shows that females are slightly more likely to identify as nonbinary.

Reporters have the ability to call up researchers to ask about questions that aren't in the survey.

Researchers have the ability to get word out if their work is misinterpreted.

Here's the article. Where is the lie? And where is the simple evidence of it?

https://theweek.com/life/1006253/the...er-trans-teens

If I'm saying things that a reasonable person can believe, and I'm called out for lies, that reflects poorly on the people whose sense of truth is warped.

Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter.[1][2][3][4] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate",[5] and has been likened to a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings.

Whether you personally agree with the conclusion doesn't impact the evidence that the Data in the study doesn't indicate how the students were brought up. Whatever other studies/estimates you apply, or whatever wild theories you present without evidence, The Week claimed they were all brought up as girls, which is a lie.

For someone who talks about respecting facts and being on the correct side rather than the 'right' one, that's about as far from reasonable as you can get. I'll note that Reasonableness isn't measured by how much one agrees with a certain viewpoint (No matter how closely it matches one's own), but by accepting evidence and applying reason & logic to the situation/argument. By ignoring the evidence presented time & time again and twisting things however you can to avoid accepting it, you are not being reasonable by any definition of the word.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Because responsible nations are supposed to be more restrained and offer measured and targeted responses than terrorist organizations.

The Israeli government has killed somewhere north of 8,000 civilians in less than a month. That sounds like a big number, but it's worse than that when you put it in perspective: over the course of nearly twenty years the US government killed around 200,000 civilians in Iraq, which means in less than a month the Israeli government has killed nearly as many civilians as the US did per year in Iraq.

That's just crazily disproportionate.

Sadly, Hamas is only a terrorist organization in their actions.

But they are the legitimate government of Gaza.

This seems to be ignored a great deal.

[aja_christopher]

For someone who talks about respecting facts and being on the correct side rather than the 'right' one, that's about as far from reasonable as you can get. I'll note that Reasonableness isn't measured by how much one agrees with a certain viewpoint (No matter how closely it matches one's own), but by accepting evidence and applying reason & logic to the situation/argument. By ignoring the evidence presented time & time again and twisting things however you can to avoid accepting it, you are not being reasonable by any definition of the word.

The "correct" and "right" side would be the one that doesn't support racism and homophobia.

If he wants to provide facts that back his support of a political party that routinely engages in bigotry then he is welcome to do so.

Instead, factual evidence regarding Republican policy is met with misrepresentation, deflection, open hostility and false accusations of "ad hominem" attacks.

The pattern is clear -- make false claims ("open borders") not backed by data, ignore Republican bigotry and attack those who provide evidence to the contrary.

The "open borders" fallacy is just one more Republican lie that he can't back up with facts.

And the claims that speaking the truth is an insult says more about the Republican party than it does those who are citing their words, actions and policies.

-----

"The GOP's Myth of an 'Open Border'"

The U.S. borders are guarded by a vast and well-funded national security agency that has grown far larger and more powerful in recent years.

"The news cycle has been dominated by Republican Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis’ recent use of appropriated state funds to fly Venezuelan migrants from Texas to Martha’s Vineyard, Massachusetts, essentially using the asylum-seekers as pawns to make a political statement about immigration. His action is being examined for violating Florida law, is already the subject of at least one criminal investigation, and has resulted in a federal lawsuit alleging that he orchestrated a premeditated, fraudulent and illegal scheme.

Whether or not DeSantis’ stunt is found to have violated the law, it was cruel and dehumanizing. This action — and similar ones orchestrated by other GOP governors — have also deliberately elevated the “open border” narrative, which falsely represents that unlawful immigrants are waltzing into the U.S. through a porous southern border in droves. The purported lawless and open border has been the main justification cited by DeSantis and other GOP governors, who have doubled down on their decision to transport migrants to prominent locations with Democratic elected officials — even though the GOP governors have deliberately made no attempt to coordinate these transfers.

Contrary to the “open border” myth, U.S. borders are guarded by a vast and well-funded national security agency that has grown far larger and more powerful in recent years. Since 2001, U.S. Border Patrol has nearly doubled in capacity, from fewer than 10,000 agents to now more than 19,500. The Biden administration has requested $97.3 billion in funding for the Department of Homeland Security for fiscal year 2023, including billions of dollars for border security and interior immigration enforcement...."

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ants-rcna48844

[ed2962]

Do you think Israel should allow Hamas to continue to exist after it has murdered 1400+ Israelis in what was essentially an one day orgy of violence? If Gaza was considered a state, isn't murdering 1400+ provocations for a full blown war? Comparative to Israel's low population and scaled up to the US's population, October 7th would be over ten 9/11s.

NO. And I literally said Hama has got to go.

[Tami]

Those who call for a Cease Fire have to understand that, for a Cease Fire to work it has to be from both sides. And as far as I can tell, Hamas has no reason to agree to a cease fire.

I would love to see it happen, but only in the context of some type of diplomatic negotiation for the safe release of the hostages. Even if that calls for a 'prisoner' swap.

Otherwise Hamas has nothing to lose and everything gain by killing the hostages and continuing to attack Israel.

[Jack Dracula]

They know who are Hamas members, they know where the tunnels are, and they can disown family members who serve.

Not saying it would be easy, but they have agency.

I think you already know you’re really over-simplifying an incredibly complex situation for Palestinian civilians.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think you already know you’re really over-simplifying an incredibly complex situation for Palestinian civilians.

I understand that.

But they're caught in the middle of a war. Hamas won't help them, and they can help Israel end the war faster.

The excuse for why they don't do so seems to boil down to basic tribalism, 'stand by your man even if they provoked a war' but at some point they need to accept reality.

They won't win a war against Israel. But they can help Israel win their war.

Most people here are saying 'Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians', well...now the Palestinians have the chance to prove it. They can help Israel wipe out Hamas, or be ground down in the crossfire.

It's not a fair choice to make, not by any measure, but it's where they are.

[Jack Dracula]

Because responsible nations are supposed to be more restrained and offer measured and targeted responses than terrorist organizations.

The Israeli government has killed somewhere north of 8,000 civilians in less than a month. That sounds like a big number, but it's worse than that when you put it in perspective: over the course of nearly twenty years the US government killed around 200,000 civilians in Iraq, which means in less than a month the Israeli government has killed nearly as many civilians as the US did per year in Iraq.

That's just crazily disproportionate.

That is exactly the response Hamas wanted from Israel. They want the the Muslim countries to watch as Israel kills large numbers of civilians to get to their leaders and soldiers in order to cancel the diplomatic gains Israel had been making in the region. Time will tell if Israel made good choices in the heat of the moment after Hamas’ horrificly brutal attack.

[aja_christopher]

A key reason why many conservatives promote the "open borders" lie.

[The Cool Thatguy]

As expensive as having kids is, Republicans really shouldn't complain about us having to import people (though yes, I know that's not what's happening).

[Dalak]

Sadly, Hamas is only a terrorist organization in their actions.

But they are the legitimate government of Gaza.

This seems to be ignored a great deal.

I understand that.

But they're caught in the middle of a war. Hamas won't help them, and they can help Israel end the war faster.

The excuse for why they don't do so seems to boil down to basic tribalism, 'stand by your man even if they provoked a war' but at some point they need to accept reality.

They won't win a war against Israel. But they can help Israel win their war.

Most people here are saying 'Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians', well...now the Palestinians have the chance to prove it. They can help Israel wipe out Hamas, or be ground down in the crossfire.

It's not a fair choice to make, not by any measure, but it's where they are.

I'm not sure if I'm on The Cool Thatguy's ignore list or being deliberately ignored, but I'll try again: How do you convince people being bombed by Israel to assist Israel? How many people in Gaza are in a position to actually fight Hamas in order to get them to Israeli authorities? Those are very important questions to answer if you are wanting Palestinians to reject Hamas as you are describing.

BTW, a government isn't legitimate if they don't allow elections, abuse their own people, and murder political opponents.

The "correct" and "right" side would be the one that doesn't support racism and homophobia.

If he wants to provide facts that back his support of a political party that routinely engages in bigotry then he is welcome to do so.

Instead, factual evidence regarding Republican policy is met with misrepresentation, deflection, open hostility and false accusations of "ad hominem" attacks.

The pattern is clear -- make false claims ("open borders") not backed by data, ignore Republican bigotry and attack those who provide evidence to the contrary.

The "open borders" fallacy is just one more Republican lie that he can't back up with facts.

And the claims that speaking the truth is an insult says more about the Republican party than it does those who are citing their words, actions and policies.

If only discussions went how they were supposed to - Both sides presenting and accepting facts and winnowing through sources to see if they are actually factual or biased misinformation to hopefully come to some conclusion.

Because responsible nations are supposed to be more restrained and offer measured and targeted responses than terrorist organizations.

The Israeli government has killed somewhere north of 8,000 civilians in less than a month. That sounds like a big number, but it's worse than that when you put it in perspective: over the course of nearly twenty years the US government killed around 200,000 civilians in Iraq, which means in less than a month the Israeli government has killed nearly as many civilians as the US did per year in Iraq.

That's just crazily disproportionate.

That is exactly the response Hamas wanted from Israel. They want the the Muslim countries to watch as Israel kills large numbers of civilians to get to their leaders and soldiers in order to cancel the diplomatic gains Israel had been making in the region. Time will tell if Israel made good choices in the heat of the moment after Hamas’ horrificly brutal attack.

Someone else's bad faith and actions don't excuse both parties doing it aka "Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right". Hamas being heartless killers of civilians and children doesn't give carte blanche to Israel to kill civilians & children at will, and the arguments I'm seeing here are being used to support that style of thinking. Don't let yourselves fall into that trap. *NOTE* I'm replying more to what was brought up in these 2 posts than to the ones who made them.

A key reason why many conservatives promote the "open borders" lie.

Bring in the illegals to take our jobs and vote Dem so they can take our guns! It doesn't matter how nonsensical the argument, conservative voters are accepting it as they've been trained to accept only the conservative spin on things rather than factual evidence as presented.

[hyped78]

Because responsible nations are supposed to be more restrained and offer measured and targeted responses than terrorist organizations.

The Israeli government has killed somewhere north of 8,000 civilians in less than a month. That sounds like a big number, but it's worse than that when you put it in perspective: over the course of nearly twenty years the US government killed around 200,000 civilians in Iraq, which means in less than a month the Israeli government has killed nearly as many civilians as the US did per year in Iraq.

That's just crazily disproportionate.

Because Hamas use their own civilians as human shields, while also hiding their arsenals in hospitals, universities and mosques, in a densely populated area.

Plus they even kill their own with hundreds of failed rocket strikes that fall in Gaza:
https://www.business-standard.com/wo...2200017_1.html

As a couple of posters have noted, Hamas tried to smuggle their own fighters into Egypt via Rafah, which in turn delayed/blocked moving injured civilians and foreign nationals who actually really needed to be moved.

Also, important: the number of Palestinian deaths you are looking at are provided by Hamas, so please take them with a grain of salt

[hyped78]

The fact that people think that defending Palestinians means defending Hamas speaks volumes.

True. But many (not all; I don’t think anyone has statistics) who are defending Palestine are also defending Hamas. It goes both ways. Today, here in London a guy with a “Hamas are terrorists” sign was promptly attacked by pro Palestinian demonstrators:
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...87237124985027

For bad or for worse, Hamas is the current government of Gaza, they’re the ones running Gaza.

The pro Palestine protestors around the world who scream “kill the Jews”, “gas the Jews”, the scumbags who desecrated a Jewish cemetery in Vienna or those who have been painting buildings in Paris to signal where Jews live - I don’t know if they are supporting Hamas, but it they’re “just” being anti-semitic that’s already unacceptable.

[Jack Dracula]

Because Hamas use their own civilians as human shields, while also hiding their arsenal in hospitals, universities and mosques

Because they want Israel to kill a terrible number of civilians. IMO they want Muslim governments and individuals to pick a side.
So then, if that’s what Hamas wants is it a good thing for Israel to do so?