All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Tami]

Calling WBE

Screenshot_2020-05-16 David Corn on Twitter Hey, look at the Republican saying Hitler committed .jpg

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[Mecegirl]

Transgender men are still biologically women so they have a huge disadvantage competing against other men. They will usually be shorter, smaller, and not as muscular by virtue of growing up female. The only sports where thats an advantage are things like tumbling in gymnastics where you need to be short. So this issue is likely never going to come up.

It is biological female, not biological woman. Gender is a social construct. How do I know that for sure? Because I am a Black woman. And I know that 100 hell even 50 years back I would not be counted as a "real" woman because of the color of my skin. Female, sure, good to be fucked and tossed aside. Good for cleaning, and cooking, or taking care of kids. Sure those part of "Womanhood" I would have access to, but without any of the dignity that being a good housekeeper should earn me. So not a full woman. Not in the same way that White women are considered women.

And I am saying that if people cared about fairness in sports then those issues would come up. Also with bathrooms. They way people talk they seem to think that the male half of the species have uncontrollable sexual urges. So all of these "butch women" entering male bathrooms or even prisons would be at risk right? Especially with how people talk about rape in general in male prisons, you'd think people would be concerned about transgendered men entering male prisons. But they are not.

[Powerboy]

The overeach on the left would be the result of a loss of objectivity in favour of subjectivity as I explained. So for instance, interpreting and banning black witch hats on Halloween because they are a symbol of racism or white supremacy is one example. Allowing a transgender man to compete in women's mixed martial arts to the point he's able to kick the crap out of every female opponent because he's biologically a man is another.

We should all be supporting racial and gender equality at all times, but when you abandon objectivity and scientific empirical evidence for subjectivity, you not only help right wing pundits like Jordan Peterson and Douglas Murrray grow in popularity, you become as irrational as the right wing nutballs like Alex Jones & Michael Savage.

A transgender person fighting in the Women's division in MMA was brought up as an example. The person, in his/ her first fight, gave the woman he/ she was fighting a concussion, a fractured jaw and so on, just destroyed her, mostly because he/ she was so overwhelmingly stronger and with denser bone structure. The transgender person did not tell the MMA organization that she was a transgender person. That came out later. When she did, the social pressure forced them to allow it. You've also got a transgender person who entered weightlifting in the Women's division and started breaking world records. You've got a lot of women who compete in these things furious. You would have thought Feminist organizations would say this isn't fair to women. But many seem to be defending the transgender person possibly because they don't want to be perceived as anti-TG or because it's part of the package of LTBG. P.S. I fit into the B category.

But the example was that it has gotten to the point that you cannot even state scientific facts without accusations of being a sexist or whatever. If I say that a transgender person is not completely female, even in terms of muscle mass and bone density, I'm an anti-transgender bigot. But it's a fact that they are not completely women. No, facts don't matter, you're a bigot.

Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing I think turns so many people off and where that political correctness thing comes from. For most people, they are not thinking about stuff like using the N word or filthy, derogatory names for women. That's not what they mean by being anti PC. They are talking about stuff like the above or about people who practically are hunting for someone to say one word they can twist into some anti-something remark that they can be offended by.

Mind you, I get that TG people are usually very troubled and need to be accepted. I know what it feels like to be hurt by anti-gay and anti-bi remarks.

THAT is NOT what I am defending. But we have become so polarized that you cannot even state facts like a TG person is not 100% female in numerous ways. I would not go out of my way to say that but, when it comes to a sports discussion about someone competing in a Women's division, you can either state facts or think, "Oh, I better pretend there's no difference when I know there is or I'll be called a bigot".

For most people, I think that's the kind of thing where that "politically correct" thing comes from.

[Powerboy]

Especially since no one seems to give a **** about Transgender men doing anything. No one cares about their performance in sports. No one cares about them entering bathrooms or prisons. Nothing.

In fairness, that's because a TG person, woman becoming man, is generally not gaining a physical advantage. It is probably also because, statistically, men are far more likely to be sexual predators. Now THAT may well be where real bigotry comes in. People are assuming that a TG person who becomes a woman still has a stereotypical male mentality and is more likely to be sexually aggressive in very wrong ways. BUT there would be those who, if you say women are not as aggressive, it makes you a sexist.

Oh, I grant you that this kind of "anti'P.C." stuff is trivial and making a mountain out of a mole hill but, in this case, you can't even deal with evidence. As Joe Rogan said, he's been in martial arts for something like thirty years and anybody who says men or trans women don't have an advantage versus women just does not know what they are talking about.

[Powerboy]

Transgender men are still biologically women so they have a huge disadvantage competing against other men. They will usually be shorter, smaller, and not as muscular by virtue of growing up female. The only sports where thats an advantage are things like tumbling in gymnastics where you need to be short. So this issue is likely never going to come up.

Transgender women on the other hand who went through male puberty have tremendous advantages in height, strength, lung capacity, muscle mass, etc. Things that aren't affected by hormones. Sure hormones will make it harder to gain muscle mass but does nothing to what you already have.

Case in point: the two transgender female high schoolers involved in the lawsuit controversy in Conneticut. They came out as trans in high school and began competing against girls. They then started winning everything including state championships.

Or to put it another way. My son ran cross country and distance running in track in high school. He wasn't very good, slightly below average, but he enjoyed it. His times were always below average and well behind the best boys. He was still faster than all the girls. Thats what happens when you grow up male, you have innate physical advantages.

And its not anti trans to accept this. I believe transgender care should be covered by health care. I was for letting gays and trans marry long before liberals came around to it - I voted for Bill Clinton back in 1992 and felt very betrayed by him when he stabbed the LGBT movement in the back with Don't Ask Don't Tell and Defense of Marriage act. I believe there needs to be laws in place adding trans protection to discrimination laws. But there also needs to be reality when it comes to things like athletics.

Just to note, I agree with everything you just said. Also, the TG MMA fighter did six fights and finally lost in the last one, got stomped supposedly but that was because the woman was phenomenal while the trans woman really wasn't that skilled, just stronger.

[Powerboy]

"Biologically women" is a loaded term.

It's also reality.

[Powerboy]

Trans women are women.

Trans men are men.

There you go

All Trigger Warning's post does is show he, also, does not understand things as well as he thinks he does.

(I will add, in all seriousness, this is where the term 'cisgender' comes in.)

No, that statement is factually incorrect. There are numerous differences that can be pointed out. Your statement just illustrates the whole point of social correctness taking precedence over reality and you're a bigot simply for stating facts.

[Powerboy]

"biologically female" or "biologically women" is usually used to deny trans people their identity. It also ignores the fact that Biology, as a science, knows that there are more than 2 genders in nature. Assigning the labels "woman" and "man" to people is an overly simplified social process, not a biological fact.

That's fair as well as factual. But insisting there are no differences between a trans person and a person who is biologically mostly female or mostly male (which is most people) is not realistic.

[Powerboy]

This is correct.

Moreover, if we're going to start demanding women have a certain level of low-testosterone to compete, we are going to find that some cis women with high testosterone, which exist, will be magically barred from competing. Caster Semenya is a real life example of this occurring. It's as unfair to ban her as it would be to ban Phelps for his ridiculously long limbs.

Trans women do not magically come to dominate sports. The reality of anti-androgens and estrogen's impact on the body is real, and bone density and muscle mass are actually lost in the process of transition.

Except that trans women receive estrogen. Contrary to what most people think, it does not reduce bone density in a full grown person. In fact, it preserves what is already there.

Yes, individuals have differences. People with extraordinary reflexes or strength dominate sports on an individual level. And, yes, racism and bigotry have been used to keep people out of sports. Nor are there that many TG people that go into sports. But when those who do were not amounting to squat as male athletes but dominate as female athletes, there is a factual argument for fairness to women. I might add that seems to be the forgotten factor.

[Tendrin]

No, that statement is factually incorrect. There are numerous differences that can be pointed out. Your statement just illustrates the whole point of social correctness taking precedence over reality and you're a bigot simply for stating facts.

Trans women are women.

Trans men are men.

Deal with it.

[Powerboy]

Anti androgens do not drastically affect the male autonomy that a transgender woman receives at birth, enough to take away their advantage in competing in woman's boxing or mixed martial arts. All the drugs and inhibitors are not going to change this. The difference between the male and female autonomy is quite apparent, it is related to reproductive roles and evolutionary adaptations. Perhaps one day we will be able to biologically eliminate gender, but we do not have the technology to do that yet.

If you want to argue that Fallon Fox should be competing in women's boxing and mixed martial arts, than be my guest.

What we do know from MRI brain scans, is that transgender woman appear to use the same neuro pathways that women do as opposed to men, which supports the case, that being transgender is not (as the religious right claim) a psychological defect, but rather a scientific empirical reality. Which is why I support transgender identity, but once you start denying scientific empirical evidence in order to support your political claims that biological gender does not exist or can be interchangeable , your entering into the subjective world of right wing wing nuts like Alex Jones and Ann Coulter, and you give them license to start spewing their false claims.

I know I'm on a posting spree but I would accept this because it is supported by scientific evidence that men who transgender to women really are psychologically women and were always meant to be women. But, in terms of some aspects of the physical, no. At that point, someone is just ignoring science in favor of social attitudes.

Like you, I know that TG people undergo horrible cruelness and I'm quite happy to be standing right next to a T person on the LTBG scale. But I have to ignore facts to not be an anti-T bigot? Really?

[Tendrin]

There are plenty of people who fought for civil rights and then turned around and engaged in horrific racism towards those same people. So yes, yes you can fight for those rights and still be a bigot.

Plenty of bigots are evidence of this even now.

[PwrdOn]

Sounds like you want the left to have its own propaganda networks, liberals do ok with broadcasting networks like MSNBC - that's where the progressive policies are done which you're ignoring. Don't blame us for the left not getting its act together on this front ask them why they're not doing it. In case you haven't noticed the right has an advantage with news networks and propaganda, its why they're so on point with messaging. The left has done zilch to curtail this on their own, but they have supported it when they think it suits them like going on Rogan and Fox News.

Is Joe Rogan a "moneyed interest"? He gives a big platform for the very people you're angry with.

There are plenty of left wing podcasters and Youtubers and such, it's just that they are genuinely grassroots focused and funded small time operations, unlike those on the right who pretend to be this but actually have significant corporate backing, which means that they tend to reach a limited audience and hardly ever make an impression in the general media landscape. And watching MSNBC is hardly something to be proud of, even with their constant attempts to shift their messaging to the right and give platforms to disgraced former Republicans, they are still barely a blip on the radar, because why would anyone choose to watch them to hear half-assed center right talking points, when you could just watch Fox News instead?

Also, since when has the right been "on point" with messaging? Conservatives are nothing if not incoherent and inconsistent at the best of times, but if they shout at the camera loud enough and make lame jokes about PC lib cuck soyboys, there will inevitably be some centrist clown who wants to occupy the sensible middle ground between Richard Spencer and AOC, nevermind that she would be considered a moderate by any reasonable standard and he is a literal Nazi.

[Powerboy]

Look, I get what you were trying to say, I just feel (when prompted) you didn't pick the best examples. There has been a noticeable (avoidable) backlash against some more draconian left-wing/PC/cancel culture opinions; and it isn't being addressed or talked about. It could all be avoidable, if people were just kinder and more patient and recognised no-one is born "woke." Everyone has to learn what is and is not okay/fair/offensive etc at some-point. You don't come out the womb knowing it all. And the tolerance of that understand is missing a lot of the time (which is ironic, since it's born from the ideal of "tolerance/acceptance"). Too often history and historical characters are tarred and feathered based on modern sensibilities, with no nuance for the time period they came from. And it seems arbitrary, sometimes. And often a wish to discuss the issue, rather than be embraced as debate, is gaslighted. Again... ironic...

We are possibly going to see an interesting fallout, at somepoint, from all of this; if it's not already happening now (which is very well might be).

To be honest, I think it's part of the rise of the Trump insanity. I think there are people so tired of walking on eggshells that they see this lunatic saying all sorts of things with no regard for the political correctness of it and they love it even when they disagree with a lot of it.

It's a dilemma though because I think the right and the left both see the other side as extreme and having gone insane. But it is a dilemma because gay rights, TG rights and women's rights are all of essential importance and you can't back off. Surprisingly, there are a lot of people on the right that support all of these things but we have become so sensitive about every little thing that I think we've already seen the backlash.

Mind you, I know there are a lot of conservatives that are redneck bigots, racists, homophobes, etc. But I think there are far more who really may not personally approve of certain things (on religious grounds or what have you) but don't think they have any right to stop it and would never say anything cruel.

[The Cool Thatguy]

There are plenty of people who fought for civil rights and then turned around and engaged in horrific racism towards those same people. So yes, yes you can fight for those rights and still be a bigot.

Plenty of bigots are evidence of this even now.

Or are or were just crazy. Jim Jones was an avid civil rights supporter, long before the Kool-Aid