All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Powerboy]

Trans women are women.

Trans men are men.

Deal with it.

Thank you for illustrating my whole point that facts don't matter to the social correctness side. Deal with it.

[Tendrin]

Thank you for illustrating my whole point that facts don't matter to the social correctness side. Deal with it.

I mean, I know you think that, but it doesn't. What is illustrated is that I know the difference between sex and gender and you do not, and that you have some 'gender critical' and reactionary views.

Even you lengthy posts about Fallon Fox have an implicit bias. Besides, I see your Fallon Fox and raised a Caster Semenya earlier.

[Tendrin]

Except that trans women receive estrogen. Contrary to what most people think, it does not reduce bone density in a full grown person. In fact, it preserves what is already there.

Tell that to the trans women whose bone density is so much lower than their cisgendered counterparts.

Low bone mineral density was common in a group of transgender women receiving hormone therapy, according to findings from a recent Brazilian study.

“Lumbar spine density was lower than in reference men but similar to that of reference women,” said Tayane Muniz Fighera, MD, speaking at the annual meeting of the Endocrine Society.

[Powerboy]

I mean, I know you think that, but it doesn't. What is illustrated is that I know the difference between sex and gender and you do not, and that you have some 'gender critical' and reactionary views.

One of the things I really liked about the whole Rogan/ Shapiro/ Harris thing is that they can sit down for one to three hours and talk about things they may drastically disagree about without it getting into mud slinging and accusations of bigotry, etc. And without nitpicking every word as proof of something let alone proof of someone's entire attitude about something.

For example, someone said "tg men" meaning "men who have transgendered into women" instead of saying "tg women" or "women". Therefore you don't know what you are talking about because you didn't use the vocabulary of another group who have their socially acceptable vocabulary. I can't say much because I've been on the other side where people who accept the reality of evolution were using the lack of accepted terminology to ridicule a religious person without really confronting the arguments.

I've already been amendable to evidence that people born male who transgender into women are psychologically and in terms of brain patterns shown to be more in line with female than male. I also understand that being female and male is a scale, not an absolute one way or the other whether I preface every sentence with it or not. My only "gender critical" or "reactionary" views seem to be that TG women competing against women in certain sports is unfair to women.

In the context of that statement, I have to say "TG women" and "women" otherwise I am saying "Women competing against women is unfair" which makes no sense. Remove the context of strength differences and such or enter a context of everyday where that doesn't matter and I'll just say "women".

[Tendrin]

One of the things I really liked about the whole Rogan/ Shapiro/ Harris thing is that they can sit down for one to three hours and talk about things they may drastically disagree about without it getting into mud slinging and accusations of bigotry, etc. And without nitpicking every word as proof of something let alone proof of someone's entire attitude about something.

For example, someone said "tg men" meaning "men who have transgendered into women" instead of saying "tg women" or "women". Therefore you don't know what you are talking about because you didn't use the vocabulary of another group who have their socially acceptable vocabulary. I can't say much because I've been on the other side where people who accept the reality of evolution were using the lack of accepted terminology to ridicule a religious person without really confronting the arguments.

I've already been amendable to evidence that people born male who transgender into women are psychologically and in terms of brain patterns shown to be more in line with female than male. I also understand that being female and male is a scale, not an absolute one way or the other whether I preface every sentence with it or not. My only "gender critical" or "reactionary" views seem to be that TG women competing against women in certain sports is unfair to women.

In the context of that statement, I have to say "TG women" and "women" otherwise I am saying "Women competing against women is unfair" which makes no sense. Remove the context of strength differences and such or enter a context of everyday where that doesn't matter and I'll just say "women".

This is what 'cis' is for.

[Malvolio]

There are plenty of left wing podcasters and Youtubers and such, it's just that they are genuinely grassroots focused and funded small time operations, unlike those on the right who pretend to be this but actually have significant corporate backing, which means that they tend to reach a limited audience and hardly ever make an impression in the general media landscape. And watching MSNBC is hardly something to be proud of, even with their constant attempts to shift their messaging to the right and give platforms to disgraced former Republicans, they are still barely a blip on the radar, because why would anyone choose to watch them to hear half-assed center right talking points, when you could just watch Fox News instead?

Also, since when has the right been "on point" with messaging? Conservatives are nothing if not incoherent and inconsistent at the best of times, but if they shout at the camera loud enough and make lame jokes about PC lib cuck soyboys, there will inevitably be some centrist clown who wants to occupy the sensible middle ground between Richard Spencer and AOC, nevermind that she would be considered a moderate by any reasonable standard and he is a literal Nazi.

I think by "on point," he simply meant that conservatives are consistent in their arguments, regardless of how inaccurate they are.

And as for liberal pod-casters, I would suggest Hal Sparks, Bob Cesca or Jodie Hamilton. They're all well thought out, and when they tell a joke, you know it's a joke when they tell it, not later when they use "I was just making a joke" as an excuse for an insult the way so many conservatives do.

[Mister Mets]

I mean, I know you think that, but it doesn't. What is illustrated is that I know the difference between sex and gender and you do not, and that you have some 'gender critical' and reactionary views.

Even you lengthy posts about Fallon Fox have an implicit bias. Besides, I see your Fallon Fox and raised a Caster Semenya earlier.

Caster Semenya does appear to have XY chromsomes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/s...ents-show.html

One of the things I really liked about the whole Rogan/ Shapiro/ Harris thing is that they can sit down for one to three hours and talk about things they may drastically disagree about without it getting into mud slinging and accusations of bigotry, etc. And without nitpicking every word as proof of something let alone proof of someone's entire attitude about something.

For example, someone said "tg men" meaning "men who have transgendered into women" instead of saying "tg women" or "women". Therefore you don't know what you are talking about because you didn't use the vocabulary of another group who have their socially acceptable vocabulary. I can't say much because I've been on the other side where people who accept the reality of evolution were using the lack of accepted terminology to ridicule a religious person without really confronting the arguments.

I've already been amendable to evidence that people born male who transgender into women are psychologically and in terms of brain patterns shown to be more in line with female than male. I also understand that being female and male is a scale, not an absolute one way or the other whether I preface every sentence with it or not. My only "gender critical" or "reactionary" views seem to be that TG women competing against women in certain sports is unfair to women.

In the context of that statement, I have to say "TG women" and "women" otherwise I am saying "Women competing against women is unfair" which makes no sense. Remove the context of strength differences and such or enter a context of everyday where that doesn't matter and I'll just say "women".

There are some on the left willing to have lengthy discussions with people they disagree with. Ezra Klein does this frequently in his podcast.

[Powerboy]

Tell that to the trans women whose bone density is so much lower than their cisgendered counterparts.

I will look this up and will, of course, be amendable to evidence.

Yes, the Fallon Fox situation may be an exception. Here's a quote from the first women who fought her in MMA.

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mm...male-opponent/

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.” – Tamika Brents said.

Again, that kind of advantage may not be typical. I'll look it up.

[Tendrin]

[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4972238]Caster Semenya does appear to have XY chromsomes.[\quote]

She is not 'biologically male', however. She may be intersex. If we're going to ban her on account of her genetics, when she's afab and intersex, then we have a lot of other people to ban on the basis of 'genetic advantage'.

[PwrdOn]

In fairness, that's because a TG person, woman becoming man, is generally not gaining a physical advantage. It is probably also because, statistically, men are far more likely to be sexual predators. Now THAT may well be where real bigotry comes in. People are assuming that a TG person who becomes a woman still has a stereotypical male mentality and is more likely to be sexually aggressive in very wrong ways. BUT there would be those who, if you say women are not as aggressive, it makes you a sexist.

Oh, I grant you that this kind of "anti'P.C." stuff is trivial and making a mountain out of a mole hill but, in this case, you can't even deal with evidence. As Joe Rogan said, he's been in martial arts for something like thirty years and anybody who says men or trans women don't have an advantage versus women just does not know what they are talking about.

You really have to zoom out and think about the bigger picture of how this fits within the greater civil rights landscape. Bigots like to focus on sports as one of the few advantages where marginalized groups might have a slight advantage, because unlike in broader society there is at least a clear set of rules that everyone has to abide by which means that the arbitrary standards used to exclude and undermine people don't work as well. Obviously a trans woman who has more testosterone and muscle mass will do better in a fight, and perhaps certain measures should be taken to ensure a more level playing field. But to hold up this issue which affects a handful of people at most as the reason why trans women are not really women and to implicitly argue for their continued degradation and marginalization from "normal" society is definitely throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Tendrin]

I will look this up and will, of course, be amendable to evidence.

Yes, the Fallon Fox situation may be an exception. Here's a quote from the first women who fought her in MMA.

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mm...male-opponent/

Oorrrr the injuries she suffered are common injuries in MMA and we all know losing fighters never make excuses.

While you're at it, look up the trans woman cyclist who was treated like Fox after beating out a cis woman, even though she lost ten races before that to the cis woman.

Or all the trans athletes who FAIL to dominate, as most of them do. This is a case where if they win, it is because they are trans, and if they lose, no one gives a crap because you never hear about it, and people's assumptions of what they think they know takes over.

In fact, that very headline is a good example. The injuries suffered were... common.

[Tendrin]

Also, trans women tend to have testosterone levels due to HRT of around the same as cis women.

[Powerboy]

You really have to zoom out and think about the bigger picture of how this fits within the greater civil rights landscape. Bigots like to focus on sports as one of the few advantages where marginalized groups might have a slight advantage, because unlike in broader society there is at least a clear set of rules that everyone has to abide by which means that the arbitrary standards used to exclude and undermine people don't work as well. Obviously a trans woman who has more testosterone and muscle mass will do better in a fight, and perhaps certain measures should be taken to ensure a more level playing field. But to hold up this issue which affects a handful of people at most as the reason why trans women are not really women and to implicitly argue for their continued degradation and marginalization from "normal" society is definitely throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Absolutely, on the larger social scale, it affects too few people to be relevant. Yes, bigots will use sports to claim TG women are not "real" women. They will even use it to take shots at women and "put them in their place". "This is what happens when a man fights a woman".

I think the backlash is that you get someone who has been deeply involved in martial arts and knows there is a significant advantage saying so and they are suddenly a sexist or bigot of some kind simply for stating what they know. In other words, guilt by association. In this case, it is factual. BUT a bigot would say that and use it as a justification for bigotry so you are guilty and the same even if your motive is that it irritates you when people on any side ignore facts.

[JackDaw]

Also, trans women tend to have testosterone levels due to HRT of around the same as cis women.

I think it’s hard to credibly argue that trans women don’t have a substantial advantage in a wide range of sports. Running, tennis, wrestling, etc, etc.

I assume we can all see why that’s an incredibly important issue to elite cis women athletes??

[The no face guy]

A transgender person fighting in the Women's division in MMA was brought up as an example. The person, in his/ her first fight, gave the woman he/ she was fighting a concussion, a fractured jaw and so on, just destroyed her, mostly because he/ she was so overwhelmingly stronger and with denser bone structure. The transgender person did not tell the MMA organization that she was a transgender person. That came out later. When she did, the social pressure forced them to allow it. You've also got a transgender person who entered weightlifting in the Women's division and started breaking world records. You've got a lot of women who compete in these things furious. You would have thought Feminist organizations would say this isn't fair to women. But many seem to be defending the transgender person possibly because they don't want to be perceived as anti-TG or because it's part of the package of LTBG. P.S. I fit into the B category.

But the example was that it has gotten to the point that you cannot even state scientific facts without accusations of being a sexist or whatever. If I say that a transgender person is not completely female, even in terms of muscle mass and bone density, I'm an anti-transgender bigot. But it's a fact that they are not completely women. No, facts don't matter, you're a bigot.

Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing I think turns so many people off and where that political correctness thing comes from. For most people, they are not thinking about stuff like using the N word or filthy, derogatory names for women. That's not what they mean by being anti PC. They are talking about stuff like the above or about people who practically are hunting for someone to say one word they can twist into some anti-something remark that they can be offended by.

Mind you, I get that TG people are usually very troubled and need to be accepted. I know what it feels like to be hurt by anti-gay and anti-bi remarks.

THAT is NOT what I am defending. But we have become so polarized that you cannot even state facts like a TG person is not 100% female in numerous ways. I would not go out of my way to say that but, when it comes to a sports discussion about someone competing in a Women's division, you can either state facts or think, "Oh, I better pretend there's no difference when I know there is or I'll be called a bigot".

For most people, I think that's the kind of thing where that "politically correct" thing comes from.

I am a liberal, so I am supportive of liberal issues like same sex marriage, cultural diversity, gun control ect, and I cannot stand either Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson. However, what I do not support is far left SJW arguments that are not grounded in empirical evidence.

As an example, despite their controversy I am generally sympathetic to the Black Lives Matter movement, because I am quite certain that you can provide the statistics and empirical evidence that black people’s civil rights are continually violated by white police officers, who hold racial biases against them.

I am not however for subjective arguments based on race or gender that are not supported by empirical evidence, because that is where the far left starts rearing its ugly head.

As an example, I read an article years ago, that was about interrogating the Lord of the Rings movie for its whiteness, in which the author reached the conclusion that Peter Jackson held unconscious racist views because the Uruk Hai orcs had dark skin, strong bodies and apparently dreadlocks that resembled black men. To my knowledge there simply isn’t a shred of evidence to support the claim that the Uruk Hai were to resemble black people either in Jackson’s film or Tolkien’s novel. Unless someone wants to correct me otherwise, Peter Jackson is not a racist, and this is left wing extremist nonsense.