All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Gray Lensman]

I think this is a little harsh, remember it's not the "noble kings or classic 'beautiful' warriors" who are the true heroes, but the underdogs of society who ultimately become the saviors. The Hobbits are not the financially rich, or the socially powerful, but the farmers, the working class, those rejected as unimportant and ignored by most of the world as offering nothing to how history is made.

Also keep in mind that the villains of LotR also seem heavily industrialized. The coal fired factories of the industrial revolution would fit perfectly in Mordor or Saruman's Isengard.

[PwrdOn]

Granted, I think arguing that Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is eurocentric is fair game considering the time period it was written. The Shire was to reflect the English countryside, the Rohan, I believe people of Nordic or Germanic decent, and though I cannot verify it off the top of my head, the Gondorians were similar to Italians & Spaniards. Tolkien's map appears to be based on Western Europe, and as he was a scholar of languages and history, it is conceivable that the Easterlings were viewed as Ottoman Turks or the Mongul Empire of Ghengis Kahn...however this is pure speculation. What we do empirically is that...

Tolkien is on record as being opposed to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany, when many people in the west were sympathetic to its cause. In terms of dark foreign forces threatening civilization, this has to do with his recollection of fighting in the trenches of world war 1 and the threat posed by a Nationalist Germanic empire at the time. As a Christian, which was extremely common for a person to be during his time, the white/black divide has to with Western Civilization's tradition of heaven and hell, and light and brimstone fire stretching back into both Christianity and European Paganism, there is to my knowledge, not a shred of evidence that Tolkien was applying this to race, particularly in the case of orcs.

I think it would be unfair to put Tolkien or Peter Jackson at blame, because white supremacists in Europe view themselves as nobleman trying to defend their homeland from non white foreign invaders. (Disgusting ideology, BTW) My problem with critical theory is that it often uses circumstantial evidence and speculation to make claims on the truth. I could start deconstructing texts and movies for their whiteness and unveil all sorts of hidden unconscious racism, but unless those claims are backed by empirical evidence it does not make it so. As a result, I worry that a great literary story like Lord of the Rings would become discarded from those who would like to see it censored for their own political agenda.

I think fundamentally, Tolkien wrote his novels to be a sort of vision of the "good old days" as he wanted them to be, as opposed to the rather more complex and troublesome history that he as a scholar would no doubt have been aware of. And certainly he's not the only person who has crafted a fantasy world where things are exactly as he wants them to be as an escape from the headaches of modern life. However, I feel like the troublesome aspect comes about because his work basically created the entire genre of medieval fantasy, with his plots and characters being copied by countless authors afterwards, few of which really understand the implications of the ideas they are stealing. And when so many people grow up with books, movies, and games where the heroes are pretty and blonde and the villains are dark, ugly, and clearly inspired by real life cultures, with stories that dictate that the good races are always good and the evil races are always evil, then it's not hard to see how those people can start applying these concepts to the world as they see it, with all manner of troubling implications. And honestly, the stereotypical Tolkienesque fantasy setting really does a disservice because it has driven so many works to be set in this one specific time and place, where the Western world was self-contained, isolated, and ignorant of the outside world, and even though this was a complete historical anomaly as Europe was generally very well-connected with the rest of the world, this ended up becoming the generic idea of "the past" for many generations of readers. For example, certain segments of the fanbase always go absolutely ballistic whenever historical fantasy films are cast with non-white actors, or women in positions of power, but if you think about it, it's not like these people didn't exist in history, they simply didn't exist in the simplistic view of history that Tolkien set the standard for.

I definitely was a huge fan of Tolkien in my younger days and sunk my teeth into all of the obscure side books and various ephemera, and still find it to be a master class in world building. However, looking back now I can definitely say that it has had an outsized influence on literature, and not always in a positive way, and that while it shouldn't be discarded we should definitely be encouraging people to broaden their horizons and taking fantasy stories in newer and bolder directions instead of just getting an endless stream of uninspired Tolkien ripoffs year after year.

Also keep in mind that the villains of LotR also seem heavily industrialized. The coal fired factories of the industrial revolution would fit perfectly in Mordor or Saruman's Isengard.

Tolkien definitely had this weirdly Jeffersonian idea of the economy, where he disliked industrialization and all of the ugliness that came with it, yet must have recognized that his own lifestyle and comfort depended heavily on the products of said industry. Frankly this is a dilemma that people have yet to resolve to the present day, and it's telling that Tolkien's response was to look back to an idyllic past where no such contradiction existed, even though the "simple" life that the hobbits enjoyed in his stories was not possible without access to all sort of commodities that a medieval agrarian society would never have been able to produce on their own.

[Kieran_Frost]

I think fundamentally, Tolkien wrote his novels to be a sort of vision of the "good old days" as he wanted them to be, as opposed to the rather more complex and troublesome history that he as a scholar would no doubt have been aware of. And certainly he's not the only person who has crafted a fantasy world where things are exactly as he wants them to be as an escape from the headaches of modern life. However, I feel like the troublesome aspect comes about because his work basically created the entire genre of medieval fantasy, with his plots and characters being copied by countless authors afterwards, few of which really understand the implications of the ideas they are stealing. And when so many people grow up with books, movies, and games where the heroes are pretty and blonde and the villains are dark, ugly, and clearly inspired by real life cultures, with stories that dictate that the good races are always good and the evil races are always evil, then it's not hard to see how those people can start applying these concepts to the world as they see it, with all manner of troubling implications. And honestly, the stereotypical Tolkienesque fantasy setting really does a disservice because it has driven so many works to be set in this one specific time and place, where the Western world was self-contained, isolated, and ignorant of the outside world, and even though this was a complete historical anomaly as Europe was generally very well-connected with the rest of the world, this ended up becoming the generic idea of "the past" for many generations of readers.

While this is all true, ultimately it's not Tolkein's fault that a) he basically is the grandfather of fantasy. People will always emulate the greats. b) people don't think outside the box, the way he did. If I look at Raymond E. Feist's "Magician" is very Tolkein heavy (even down to the dragon) and is creating these same issues you are talking about. BUT Raymond E' Feist then paired with Janny Wurst to create the best fantasy trilogy ever (the Empire trilogy) inspired by Japanese culture, and with a female as the sole lead and star. You just have to trust the greats will always be creative, and the mediocre will always only emmulate. It took decades to add a third voice to the Greek tragedies after Aeschylus added a second player.

For example, certain segments of the fanbase always go absolutely ballistic whenever historical fantasy films are cast with non-white actors, or women in positions of power, but if you think about it, it's not like these people didn't exist in history, they simply didn't exist in the simplistic view of history that Tolkien set the standard for.

Well... I mean he had Lady Galadriel as one of the pillars of Elvenkind, also a ruler and arguably one of the most powerful creatures on Middle Earth. And (for the time, especially) Eowyn was was a hugely feminist comment on a male driven society. The Witch King was so indoctrinated into the patriarchy that the 'riddle' of "no mortal man can kill me" wasn't evidently flawed to his eyes until she fort him.

I definitely was a huge fan of Tolkien in my younger days and sunk my teeth into all of the obscure side books and various ephemera, and still find it to be a master class in world building. However, looking back now I can definitely say that it has had an outsized influence on literature, and not always in a positive way, and that while it shouldn't be discarded we should definitely be encouraging people to broaden their horizons and taking fantasy stories in newer and bolder directions instead of just getting an endless stream of uninspired Tolkien ripoffs year after year.

Again, I think the blame shouldn't lie with Tolkein. Shakespeare redefined theatre. But all the rip-offs and uninspired copies that happened isn't his fault for just being so good, everyone copied him. Let's not downgrade Gladiator (2000) from a masterpiece just because tons of mediocre films tried to cash in on that sword n' sandals revival.

Tolkien definitely had this weirdly Jeffersonian idea of the economy, where he disliked industrialization and all of the ugliness that came with it, yet must have recognized that his own lifestyle and comfort depended heavily on the products of said industry. Frankly this is a dilemma that people have yet to resolve to the present day, and it's telling that Tolkien's response was to look back to an idyllic past where no such contradiction existed, even though the "simple" life that the hobbits enjoyed in his stories was not possible without access to all sort of commodities that a medieval agrarian society would never have been able to produce on their own.

I agree with this, but there is only so much a writer can delve into the economic foundations of a world, as well as social construct, as well as class issues, as well as... before you realise you've read a hundred pages and it's boring as sin because it's just trying to cover all aspects of the world when people are here for plot and character work (primarily).

Also keep in mind that the villains of LotR also seem heavily industrialized. The coal fired factories of the industrial revolution would fit perfectly in Mordor or Saruman's Isengard.

Very true! Oh! It reminds me of that awesome arc in Journey into Mystery, where industrialization came to Avalon.

[Mister Mets]

I think this is a little harsh, remember it's not the "noble kings or classic 'beautiful' warriors" who are the true heroes, but the underdogs of society who ultimately become the saviors. The Hobbits are not the financially rich, or the socially powerful, but the farmers, the working class, those rejected as unimportant and ignored by most of the world as offering nothing to how history is made.

There also wasn't much in Lord of the Rings that endorsed imperalism.

Granted, I think arguing that Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is eurocentric is fair game considering the time period it was written. The Shire was to reflect the English countryside, the Rohan, I believe people of Nordic or Germanic decent, and though I cannot verify it off the top of my head, the Gondorians were similar to Italians & Spaniards. Tolkien's map appears to be based on Western Europe, and as he was a scholar of languages and history, it is conceivable that the Easterlings were viewed as Ottoman Turks or the Mongul Empire of Ghengis Kahn...however this is pure speculation. What we do empirically is that...

Tolkien is on record as being opposed to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany, when many people in the west were sympathetic to its cause. In terms of dark foreign forces threatening civilization, this has to do with his recollection of fighting in the trenches of world war 1 and the threat posed by a Nationalist Germanic empire at the time. As a Christian, which was extremely common for a person to be during his time, the white/black divide has to with Western Civilization's tradition of heaven and hell, and light and brimstone fire stretching back into both Christianity and European Paganism, there is to my knowledge, not a shred of evidence that Tolkien was applying this to race, particularly in the case of orcs.

I think it would be unfair to put Tolkien or Peter Jackson at blame, because white supremacists in Europe view themselves as nobleman trying to defend their homeland from non white foreign invaders. (Disgusting ideology, BTW) My problem with critical theory is that it often uses circumstantial evidence and speculation to make claims on the truth. I could start deconstructing texts and movies for their whiteness and unveil all sorts of hidden unconscious racism, but unless those claims are backed by empirical evidence it does not make it so. As a result, I worry that a great literary story like Lord of the Rings would become discarded from those who would like to see it censored for their own political agenda.

Tolkien had an interesting response when German publishers interested in translating the Hobbit inquired if he was Aryan.

https://www.newsweek.com/hobbit-how-...s-race-1132744

Tolkien submitted two draft replies to the German. The first simply ignored the request. But the second demonstrates the author's opinion on the Nazi state—and its misunderstanding of the word "Aryan"—in no uncertain terms. It reads as follows:

"Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects.

"But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject—which should be sufficient.

"I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

"Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung [descent]."

[Gray Lensman]

Interesting, yet another piece of potential evidence to support transgender identity, if you have the link to study, I would like to read it.

Here is the SciShow short where I heard of it.

[A Small Talent For War]

I wonder if the testosterone effect on b cells is a factor in the fact that more men have serious outcomes with Covid19 than women. In nearly every age group, more men die from the virus than women except the very elderly, but the reason for that is that most men in general die before 85 so the number of women in that age group is overwhelming.

[Tami]

Graduate Together celebrates the millions of members of the class of 2020

Coming online and on TV soon.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Graduate Together celebrates the millions of members of the class of 2020

Coming online and on TV soon.

This is pretty darn cool!

[Tami]

This is pretty darn cool!

If you really want to give it to Trump, everyone should watch regardless if you are a high school student, a parent, or none of the above. The higher the ratings, the higher Trump's Blood Pressure will elevate.

[Steel Inquisitor]

There are plenty of left wing podcasters and Youtubers and such, it's just that they are genuinely grassroots focused and funded small time operations, unlike those on the right who pretend to be this but actually have significant corporate backing, which means that they tend to reach a limited audience and hardly ever make an impression in the general media landscape. And watching MSNBC is hardly something to be proud of, even with their constant attempts to shift their messaging to the right and give platforms to disgraced former Republicans, they are still barely a blip on the radar, because why would anyone choose to watch them to hear half-assed center right talking points, when you could just watch Fox News instead?

The left wing you want to signal boost would refuse billionaire backing if they are given it. The only path this can happen is by getting donors like that. Getting cable networks isn't cheap.

MSNBC's fine, they're just not a propaganda network. They only count as "right" if you so far to the left you're going to bump into Stalin. Millions of people watch their network, it's why they have a network. Conflating them to Fox News, that's funny.

Also, since when has the right been "on point" with messaging? Conservatives are nothing if not incoherent and inconsistent at the best of times, but if they shout at the camera loud enough and make lame jokes about PC lib cuck soyboys, there will inevitably be some centrist clown who wants to occupy the sensible middle ground between Richard Spencer and AOC, nevermind that she would be considered a moderate by any reasonable standard and he is a literal Nazi.

It's been a strength they've had since Fox News, if not before. This isn't about the Richard Spencer's it's about the Sean Hannity's. AOC would have been a divisive figure by the press and right wing in Britain.

[The Cool Thatguy]

If you really want to give it to Trump, everyone should watch regardless if you are a high school student, a parent, or none of the above. The higher the ratings, the higher Trump's Blood Pressure will elevate.

I'm DVR-ing it on Fox for just that reason.

[The no face guy]

I think fundamentally, Tolkien wrote his novels to be a sort of vision of the "good old days" as he wanted them to be, as opposed to the rather more complex and troublesome history that he as a scholar would no doubt have been aware of. And certainly he's not the only person who has crafted a fantasy world where things are exactly as he wants them to be as an escape from the headaches of modern life. However, I feel like the troublesome aspect comes about because his work basically created the entire genre of medieval fantasy, with his plots and characters being copied by countless authors afterwards, few of which really understand the implications of the ideas they are stealing. And when so many people grow up with books, movies, and games where the heroes are pretty and blonde and the villains are dark, ugly, and clearly inspired by real life cultures, with stories that dictate that the good races are always good and the evil races are always evil, then it's not hard to see how those people can start applying these concepts to the world as they see it, with all manner of troubling implications. And honestly, the stereotypical Tolkienesque fantasy setting really does a disservice because it has driven so many works to be set in this one specific time and place, where the Western world was self-contained, isolated, and ignorant of the outside world, and even though this was a complete historical anomaly as Europe was generally very well-connected with the rest of the world, this ended up becoming the generic idea of "the past" for many generations of readers. For example, certain segments of the fanbase always go absolutely ballistic whenever historical fantasy films are cast with non-white actors, or women in positions of power, but if you think about it, it's not like these people didn't exist in history, they simply didn't exist in the simplistic view of history that Tolkien set the standard for.

I definitely was a huge fan of Tolkien in my younger days and sunk my teeth into all of the obscure side books and various ephemera, and still find it to be a master class in world building. However, looking back now I can definitely say that it has had an outsized influence on literature, and not always in a positive way, and that while it shouldn't be discarded we should definitely be encouraging people to broaden their horizons and taking fantasy stories in newer and bolder directions instead of just getting an endless stream of uninspired Tolkien ripoffs year after year.



Tolkien definitely had this weirdly Jeffersonian idea of the economy, where he disliked industrialization and all of the ugliness that came with it, yet must have recognized that his own lifestyle and comfort depended heavily on the products of said industry. Frankly this is a dilemma that people have yet to resolve to the present day, and it's telling that Tolkien's response was to look back to an idyllic past where no such contradiction existed, even though the "simple" life that the hobbits enjoyed in his stories was not possible without access to all sort of commodities that a medieval agrarian society would never have been able to produce on their own.

Arrg! I am probably going to annoy people who have been siding with me on Tolkien, but I believe our arguments should always be guided by empirical evidence, not on winning an argument, and I have found something disturbing in Tolkien’s work, which I was previously unaware of. It concerns the description of the men of Far Harad.

and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues

This is unfortunate, considering it was written in the 1930’s. I cannot account for it as being a description of anything other than a caricature of central African people, a description that appeared common place amongst white Europeans in cartoons and the media of the time.

However, Tolkien makes it clear in his writings that there were no inherently evil races of men in Lord of the Rings, only those who had fallen under the influence of Sauron and Saruman, and it is strongly implied that both the Dundelings and Corsairs were of western Caucasian stock. As for certain fan bases getting upset if they do not cast non white characters, although Aragorn is described as having dark hair and a pale face & grey eyes, it is also noted that the Dunedain were...

The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree

This would suggest that Aragorn is probably not of Northern European stock, and could have been played by someone of a different ethnicity be they Arabic, or First Nations. Finally, as has been pointed out, Tolkien was against the scientific racism of the Nazi’s, which led to the Hobbit being translated to German temporarily halted.

https://www.good.is/articles/jrr-rolkien-nazi-letter
https://io9.gizmodo.com/whats-classi...azis-a-5892697

Bottom line, I do not think Tolkien was inherently racist, and despite the quote above I think the author who was “interrogating” Peter Jackson’s film for it’s whiteness and unconscious racism, was engaging in conjecture and circumstantial evidence. There is not a shred of empirical evidence to suggest that the Uruk- Hai or the orcs were ever caricatures of black people. Despite this, do you discard one of the greatest pieces of 20th century literature for one line, written 80, 90 years ago?

[heretic]

How dare you work from home! Get out there and be sick, goddammit! Jim Jordan continues to be a dick.

<notes that 'Telework' is an option for businesses that do not do vast amounts of in-person customer service and have the technical capabilities>

<notes also that "House Democrats" are the faction encouraging the populace at large to hole up at home to the greatest extent possible>

This fellow... really has a hard time finding solid criticisms.

[heretic]

To be honest, I think it's part of the rise of the Trump insanity. I think there are people so tired of walking on eggshells that they see this lunatic saying all sorts of things with no regard for the political correctness of it and they love it even when they disagree with a lot of it.

IOW, there are a lot of people who find basic civility to be SO BLASTED HARD and are traumatized to the point of voting for, well, Trump.

This... does not make them look good.

[Robotman]

Graduate Together celebrates the millions of members of the class of 2020

Coming online and on TV soon.

I had forgot what a real leader sounds like. Damn, I miss Obama.