Post Crisis: Superman, WW, GL, MMH VS The Four Heavenly Kibgs (Toriko)

[Nik Hasta]

How is WW too slow? Outside of flying, her reactions were always on Par with that of a Kryptonians so how would she fair worse than Superman in thay area?

As I recall of the Post Crisis era, Wondy was in the same kind of ballpark but was a bit slower than Superman in terms of feats.

Is that not correct? I'll freely admit it's been a long time since I read Morrison era JLA.

[Captain Morgan]

As I recall of the Post Crisis era, Wondy was in the same kind of ballpark but was a bit slower than Superman in terms of feats.

Is that not correct? I'll freely admit it's been a long time since I read Morrison era JLA.

She was like the Cassandra Cain to Clark's Quicksilver, is how I tend to think of it. Capable of deflecting rapid fire light speed projectiles but not just operating at those speeds the way Clark could.

[Cody]

She was like the Cassandra Cain to Clark's Quicksilver, is how I tend to think of it. Capable of deflecting rapid fire light speed projectiles but not just operating at those speeds the way Clark could.

Idk, she always seem to routinely kick the tar out of Powergirl or Supergirl whenever they had it out in someway or another. Seems like if they weren't comparable in speed that wouldn't be a thing that could happen.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Hoo-boy. That's some impressive arm length you have there because you are reaching massively at the moment.

Enbu does not make you immune to telepathy. It means that your cells work in total unison to maximise your power. The Four Kings are still using their brains to fight when they use it, ergo if J'onn takes control of their brains then he has control of their cells as well.



And then J'onn takes control of them as well. Guy is more than capable of controlling multiple entities with zero feats of telepathic resistance.



And what would you perceive Toriko doing with Ultimate Routine before he gets mindcontrolled?

i hate viz media because you cant save images.

If Enbu is diverting all cells to block cells being manipulated in the brain, which is part of the inside track of how telepathy works, it would do just that.

Going a step further, like if Telepathy extends to manipulating conciousness itself, it fails gainst the demons.

Appetite demons are appetitie made conscious with food memories that cannot be forgotten. At a high enough level, the gourmet cells can make other cells "give up". The latter has show it applies to outright casualtiy manipulation in food luck, time manipulation, atomic manipulation, and even mind zorching via insanity (emperor crow's shadow). So... demon red, blue, and white have an endless consciousness they can never forget tied to a realm MMH can never excess and with cells so powerful they could make the telepathic attack itself give up.

As for ultimate routine, it'd about as complicated as think "slice". The mental impression ultimate routine uses, which is arguably a psychic attack itself (impression of reality projected onto another's mind) is liable to Ko MMH.


---

All Kings have FTL or lightspeed reactions because they reacted to God's tongue blitz.

[Slade1]

i hate viz media because you cant save images.

If Enbu is diverting all cells to block cells being manipulated in the brain, which is part of the inside track of how telepathy works, it would do just that.

Going a step further, like if Telepathy extends to manipulating conciousness itself, it fails gainst the demons.

Appetite demons are appetitie made conscious with food memories that cannot be forgotten. At a high enough level, the gourmet cells can make other cells "give up". The latter has show it applies to outright casualtiy manipulation in food luck, time manipulation, atomic manipulation, and even mind zorching via insanity (emperor crow's shadow). So... demon red, blue, and white have an endless consciousness they can never forget tied to a realm MMH can never excess and with cells so powerful they could make the telepathic attack itself give up.

As for ultimate routine, it'd about as complicated as think "slice". The mental impression ultimate routine uses, which is arguably a psychic attack itself (impression of reality projected onto another's mind) is liable to Ko MMH.


---

All Kings have FTL or lightspeed reactions because they reacted to God's tongue blitz.

This is all speculation, not feats.

[Nik Hasta]

i hate viz media because you cant save images.

If Enbu is diverting all cells to block cells being manipulated in the brain, which is part of the inside track of how telepathy works, it would do just that.

Going a step further, like if Telepathy extends to manipulating conciousness itself, it fails gainst the demons.

Appetite demons are appetitie made conscious with food memories that cannot be forgotten. At a high enough level, the gourmet cells can make other cells "give up". The latter has show it applies to outright casualtiy manipulation in food luck, time manipulation, atomic manipulation, and even mind zorching via insanity (emperor crow's shadow). So... demon red, blue, and white have an endless consciousness they can never forget tied to a realm MMH can never excess and with cells so powerful they could make the telepathic attack itself give up.

Mother of god, this is some word salad.

Let's begin with the first point. Enbu has nothing to do with manipulating consciousness. It doesn't have any feats of resisting or granting resistance against psychic attacks. If I have forgotten something, feel free to post feats.

Second, the food demons have minds. They have consciousness that exists and J'onn is a master of manipulating the mental realm. Whether they can be permanently killed or whatever is immaterial here. J'onn has done stuff like telepathically override interstellar psychic communication networks, telepathically implant his consciousness into an entire planet, scan in-depth every mind on planet earth looking for another psychic presence and has telepathically shoved the Spectre around.

The appetite demons have, again, no feats of psychic resistance. He is going to find controlling them easy.

Also, Emperor Crow's shadow isn't confirmed as a psychic attack, as I recall it has a "poisonous shadow". Second, even if it were psychic, that doesn't compare to the level of stuff J'onn can do.

I'm not denying that Toriko and the crew and their various demons aren't powerful, they are. But they have no track record of resisting psychic power that is anywhere near to what is required to resist a fully motivated J'onn. You would need feats to indicate why J'onn doesn't just psychically stunlock everyone in microsecond one of the fight.

As for ultimate routine, it'd about as complicated as think "slice". The mental impression ultimate routine uses, which is arguably a psychic attack itself (impression of reality that doesn't yet projected onto another's mind) is liable to Ko MMH.

So, you're implying that a massively weaker "psychic" attack than J'onn is capable of, a psychic attack that Starjun and Toriko ultimately didn't seem to care about much when they were firing them at each other and was largely forgotten in the series because it was irrelevant... is going to K.O the much more powerful psychic powerhouse that is J'onn because... what?

[master of read]

unless there is a moment when the four kings have been attacked by a attack that is specifically shown to be psionic in nature and they resist it through the use of enbu, you can't say they can.

[Rightoya]

She was like the Cassandra Cain to Clark's Quicksilver, is how I tend to think of it. Capable of deflecting rapid fire light speed projectiles but not just operating at those speeds the way Clark could.

Now hold the phone that comparison is quite frankly absurd, Cassandra Cain is a street tier character with worse reflexes than the gatekeeper to the next tier Spiderman while Quicksilver is a not Flash level but still clear Speedster that is tiers above Cassandra on all accounts of speed.

Without applying incredible double standards about using Superman's outliers but not Wonder Woman's is that comparison not even close to reasonable, also is the only kind of speed where Wonder Woman really can't operate like Superman the travel speed category, claiming she would have only fast reflexes goes into a very misleading direction.

[Rightoya]

As I recall of the Post Crisis era, Wondy was in the same kind of ballpark but was a bit slower than Superman in terms of feats.

Is that not correct? I'll freely admit it's been a long time since I read Morrison era JLA.

That is correct, she is usually as fast or even faster than quite a few other Kryptonians outside of the travel speed category though.

[Rightoya]

They are.

But so are all the DC characters in this rumble too.

Oh yeah i know, but i remember a discussion with Toriko and God of Highschool characters about who is more massively faster than light to an incredible degree, and that's in my experience not the speed Martian Manhunter very often operates on.

[Nik Hasta]

That is correct, she is usually as fast or faster than other Kryptonians outside of the travel speed category though.

Feats for this? I recall Wondy being fairly consistently shown as slower. Certainly not faster.

Oh yeah i know, but i remember a discussion with Toriko and God of Highschool characters about who is more massively faster than light to an incredible degree, and that's in my experience not the speed Martian Manhunter very often operates on.

Well, this certainly undermines your credibility with regards to talking about the capacities of various characters somewhat because this is just factually inaccurate.

No one in God of High School is faster than light. You could, potentially, argue that Jae Bong Chim x250,000 Ragnarok era Jin Mori was that quick simply by virtue of aggressive scaling but he never did much in the way of speed feats so there's no real way to confirm that.

[Rightoya]

Feats for this? I recall Wondy being fairly consistently shown as slower. Certainly not faster.



Well, this certainly undermines your credibility with regards to talking about the capacities of various characters somewhat because this is just factually inaccurate.

No one in God of High School is faster than light. You could, potentially, argue that Jae Bong Chim x250,000 Ragnarok era Jin Mori was that quick simply by virtue of aggressive scaling but he never did much in the way of speed feats so there's no real way to confirm that.

Slower than the likes of Supergirl, Powergirl, Zod or Faora, when? I mean:

She first acknowledged that Powergirl is as fast:

https://i.imgur.com/oaLd6bp.jpg

But then added skill to the mix:



https://i.imgur.com/caBcNcg.jpg

Which seems to be a theme, around the same speed but with an edge for Wonder Woman due to skill, although there were also moments like Cheetah being faster than eye to Supergirl:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...9212-56663.jpg

Who Wonder Woman later on fights with in the same story, which you don't need to believe me because i have no scan ready, but i promise you it's to the best of my knowledge.

And we have speed showings for New 52 and Rebirth as well:

Supergirl:



https://imgur.com/a/K2qzH

Zod and Faora:



https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...lipboard04.jpg

Supergirl amped to an unknown degree and bloodlusted, this time in Rebirth:

https://imgur.com/a/s76ehQx

I don't think it should affect my reputation at all, because my first comment was formulated as a question for a good reason, i freely admit that i don't know enough about either of the verses to verify what was said in that thread, i have just heard it a few times already but it might be completely inaccurate.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Mother of god, this is some word salad.

Let's begin with the first point. Enbu has nothing to do with manipulating consciousness. It doesn't have any feats of resisting or granting resistance against psychic attacks. If I have forgotten something, feel free to post feats.

Second, the food demons have minds. They have consciousness that exists and J'onn is a master of manipulating the mental realm. Whether they can be permanently killed or whatever is immaterial here. J'onn has done stuff like telepathically override interstellar psychic communication networks, telepathically implant his consciousness into an entire planet, scan in-depth every mind on planet earth looking for another psychic presence and has telepathically shoved the Spectre around.

The appetite demons have, again, no feats of psychic resistance. He is going to find controlling them easy.

Also, Emperor Crow's shadow isn't confirmed as a psychic attack, as I recall it has a "poisonous shadow". Second, even if it were psychic, that doesn't compare to the level of stuff J'onn can do.

I'm not denying that Toriko and the crew and their various demons aren't powerful, they are. But they have no track record of resisting psychic power that is anywhere near to what is required to resist a fully motivated J'onn. You would need feats to indicate why J'onn doesn't just psychically stunlock everyone in microsecond one of the fight.



So, you're implying that a massively weaker "psychic" attack than J'onn is capable of, a psychic attack that Starjun and Toriko ultimately didn't seem to care about much when they were firing them at each other and was largely forgotten in the series because it was irrelevant... is going to K.O the much more powerful psychic powerhouse that is J'onn because... what?

MMH messing with a whole planet is impressive, but he'd need to be able to mess with the mecanincs of how an infinite dimension in the Toriko spirit realm works to make the appetite demons forget their food memories embodied into their gourmet cells. They are simply appetite given form whose conciousness is to eat. They are "in Toriko" yet still in the spirit realm at the same time. We see this when Komatsu spots them in V38 P187

-Emperor Crow's shadow attack-

In volume 42 the entry under Emperor Crow, which in the volume releases, states: Those who enter the bird kings shadow are engulfed in darkness and go mad as they are silently and instantly destroyed.

In volume 39 P80 we see just that happen to a piece of Neo. *This piece was not an appettie demon proper. "The creatures thought process stopped and it couldn't even remember what it was there to do. Though it was a creature who only lived for its appettite...it forgot even that. After being confused for a little while. Without a sound. It shatterred into pieces.

That sounds like a psychic attack to me.
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In hindsight, I think you're right about Ultimate routine. It has only shown to affect living creatures within a radius of a few hundred yards. It's useless against MMH.
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So this cones down to whether MMH gets blitzed or not by the kings.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Which Green Lantern?

Hal Jordan.

[Nik Hasta]

Looking at the Post Crisis feats presented by Rightoya, that shows the usual thing of Wondy being "in the Kryptonian bracket but makes up the deficit on skill, experience and intuition," I don't see any feats that put her on the level of the higher tier Superman feats which is the key here.

And we have speed showings for New 52 and Rebirth as well:

As a note; Nu52 and Rebirth aren't strictly relevant as OP specified Post Crisis as our benchmark.

I'm happy enough for her to be somewhat competitive in speed but, as I recall, her feats haven't reached as high as say Superman himself who has stuff like "zip across an entire city in the time it takes a bullet to fly less than a foot to catch it," "rebuild an entire Bizarro city in about 30 seconds," "travel across most of the middle east in the time it takes bullets to go six feet," and other such silly fast stuff.

Toriko speed is a bit odd in places but I think Wondy doesn't quite have the feats to stack up to the level the Four Kings are running around at. Superman, I think, does because his feats are better.

I don't think it should affect my reputation at all, because my first comment was formulated as a question for a good reason, i freely admit that i don't know enough about either of the verses to verify what was said in that thread, i have just heard it a few times already but it might be completely inaccurate.

I didn't mean to specifically impugn your character, I was more just amused at the irony of your presenting an opinion about one character while inadvertantly mischaracterising an entire unrelated series. No offence was intended, I just found it a little funny.

MMH messing with a whole planet is impressive, but he'd need to be able to mess with the mecanincs of how an infinite dimension in the Toriko spirit realm works to make the appetite demons forget their food memories embodied into their gourmet cells. They are simply appetite given form whose conciousness is to eat. They are "in Toriko" yet still in the spirit realm at the same time. We see this when Komatsu spots them in V38 P187

Everything we have seen of the appetite demons indicates that they have normal minds and normal drives and feelings and emotions that J'onn can easily mess with. Their personal identities may be impossible to destroy but J'onn doesn't need to do that to get the win here. He takes control of the Four Kings immediately, because he definitely can, if their gourmet cells manifest into the appetite demons then he takes control of them as well.

That's it. He doesn't need to erase their consciousness he just takes control of it while Green Lantern makes a black hole or something to win the fight.

The metaphysical presences of Toriko's food demons does not somehow equate to them having some kind of native defence against telepathy. You would need to show that they can resist a psychic attack and then further show that they can resist a psychic attack /on the scale of J'onn/.

-Emperor Crow's shadow attack-

In volume 42 the entry under Emperor Crow, which in the volume releases, states: Those who enter the bird kings shadow are engulfed in darkness and go mad as they are silently and instantly destroyed.

In volume 39 P80 we see just that happen to a piece of Neo. *This piece was not an appettie demon proper. "The creatures thought process stopped and it couldn't even remember what it was there to do. Though it was a creature who only lived for its appettite...it forgot even that. After being confused for a little while. Without a sound. It shatterred into pieces.

That sounds like a psychic attack to me.
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Elsewhere in the series they say he has a poisonous shadow and Kiss is Coco's partner because they are thematically linked through their respective poisonous abilities. Also, telepathic attacks generally do not cause your body to melt away.

And further still, even if we do accept that Emperor Shadow is a psychic attack, here's a couple of issues with this argument:

1) It is still drastically weaker than stuff J'onn has been shown to be capable of.
2) None of the Four Kings ever got hit by it so there's no demonstrable resistance to it being shown by the Toriko side.
3) The only being that got hit by it, a fragment of Neo, was obliterated by it. This would suggest that J'onn, a telepath of a much higher calibre, would have even less of a problem.

So this cones down to whether MMH gets blitzed or not by the kings.

Well, more accurately, if the Four Kings can get by the rest of the team to get to J'onn before he thinks. I don't think they can.