When being an Avenger used to mean something

[davew128]

I'm reminded of Children's Crusade when the X-Men and the Avengers finally catch up with Scarlet Witch. Wiccan is trying to calm everyone down and Scott Summers or someone says, "What? We're supposed to just forgive her cause she says she's sorry?" And Wiccan's reply is, "Yes! Half the people on both your teams are ex-criminals..."

Ha! Or like the scene in AvX when Storm confronts everyone in a meeting on Utopia and asks everyone who has at one point been considered a super-villain to raise their hand! If memory serves, at the table you had Magneto, Namor, Emma, Nemesis, and a couple others.

[Voices From the Eyrie]

Ha! Or like the scene in AvX when Storm confronts everyone in a meeting on Utopia and asks everyone who has at one point been considered a super-villain to raise their hand! If memory serves, at the table you had Magneto, Namor, Emma, Nemesis, and a couple others.

Funny how no X-Men fans are calling for their heads. I guess Magneto hurt the "right people".

[Dragonick]

I could have sworn that we've had this exact same thread before, and I think even the same responses.

[Sutekh]

While I don't think teams of all B-listers is great for sales, I also don't think that a team of all A-listers is great for reading. The only time I pick up the current book is when other characters like the Russian heroes or Squadron Supreme show up. The B-listers were great because their stories continued while the A-listers stories mostly were told out of the Avengers books.

It's a shame that DC's Justlce League does pretty much the same. I loved when members like Green Arrow, Black Canary and Red Tornado were members.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of 'lower decks' sorts of groups, and I'd love a Justice League lineup of the 'satellite era' League members who *weren't* 'the Big Seven;' Green Arrow, Black Canary, Atom, Hawkpeeps, Zatanna, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Elongated Man (and Sue).

Similarly, an Avengers lineup with non-founding Avengers could be fun, and give some attention to people like Wonder Man, Monica Rambeau, Vision, US Agent, Hercules, Tigra, Scott Lang/Ant-Man, etc. who have been regular Avengers, but aren't Cap, Tony or Thor (and aren't necessarily super-low-tier Avengers like Silverclaw, D-Man, Deathcry or Dr. Druid...).

Ha, I just remembered that Wonder Man and Vision and Scott Lang all count as former felons / foes that have become Avengers! You could easily field an Avengers team a dozen strong with former enemies or villains! (Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Moondragon, Namor, Wonder Man, Vision, Ant-Man (Scott), Yellowjacket (Rita), Swordsman, Sandman, etc.)

[Steel Inquisitor]

This.

The Avengers isn’t the Justice League (even they have had a lot of unorthodox members).

Anyone can be an Avenger and it’s been like that for decades now. It’s too late to go back.

The Avengers and Justice League are identical, they only have exclusive memberships temporarily like Morrison's JLA and that ended when they increased the roster for greater threats. This was a Justice League roster:

[JudicatorPrime]

The only thing that every Avengers team should have is that feeling of pressure that you're the world's first, last and best line of defense, even if there are other teams out there that can get the job done. Most of the people on those other teams probably were Avengers at one point or another, so they get it.

That said, if we're all calling for a new team to be created that consists of members who never were and never will be Avengers, that might be a thread worth rehashing. (I think we talked about that, too, previously.) All Marvel has to do is reintroduce the Ultra Force in 616. Or go see about buying out the Milestone imprint from DC. Daredevil or Deadpool joining the Blood Syndicate might make for interesting read.

[charliehustle415]

Anyone remember when being an Avenger was a badge of honor?

I don’t see them like that anymore with having members like Ex Nihlo and Starbrand as well as those Dark Avengers.

Avengers have lost their honor from my perspective and have become just another Initiative type team which almost anyone can join.

Should Uncanny be considered an official team? That horrible newer West Coast branch?? Savage Avengers???

No.

They need to go official again and wipe the slate of dishonorable persons and unofficial teams.

Moonstone an Avenger? No effing way.

Unfortunately this would mean new members from unofficial teams would have their membership revoked. Rogue, Johnny Storm, Ex Nihlo (yuck), etc. would no longer be official members. (This would make for a great storyline.)

There should be one official team with maybe a coastal branch that aren’t shooting a reality show.

I came on board to the Avengers durning Bendis; I never knew the Avengers were an honorific team.

I mean do the heroes themselves see it as some honor or is it merely heroes coming together to fight some big bad?

I know the young heroes look up to the Avengers; but that's more because of their feats as opposed to them simply belonging to the team.

I think the old school view is long dead especially with Bendis/Hickman's coda of "Make the Avengers BIGGER" they're no longer the Knights of the Round Table; they are the Knights as well as every other piece on the board.

Avengers IMO stands for Avenging wrongs; specially wrongs against Earth and her allies.

[Captain M]

What are you talking about, there are barely any Avengers books

[Sutekh]

Ha! Or like the scene in AvX when Storm confronts everyone in a meeting on Utopia and asks everyone who has at one point been considered a super-villain to raise their hand! If memory serves, at the table you had Magneto, Namor, Emma, Nemesis, and a couple others.

While I do feel like the X-Men shouldn't be held to the same standards, since they have progressed far from being a 'superhero' team to being more of a mutant-rights political advocacy group that is trying to represent *all* mutants, I was amused by an X-Factor special set on Utopia where Cyclops was trying to recruit Madrox and his X-Factor peeps to move to Utopia, and Madrox was like, 'You associate with too many bad guys for my taste' and Cyclops is all 'pooh-pooh' and then Madrox points and Emma, Magneto and Namor are walking into the room together and Cyke just looks pained...

But yeah, I don't feel like the A vs X nonsense is relevant to any discussion about whether or not being an Avenger should 'mean anything.' I myself feel a little irritated when I see some Avengers merch that has Spider-Man and Wolverine on it, since I tend to think of the 'classic 80's Avengers' like Cap, Tony, Thor, Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man, Vision, etc. and feel weird seeing merch with people I more strongly associate with other properties, like the Thing or Luke Cage as Avengers on them (but am totally hypocritical in that I'm just fine with Crystal or Sersi or the Beast as members, when they are associated with other teams, primarily...).

Indeed, I'm actually surprised that the 'A vs. X nonsense' is still going on, since it was an entirely manufactured 'controversy' by Marvel editorial, and it's kinda embarrassing to see fans still falling for this Team Shirtless Werewolf vs. Team Sparkly Vampire us vs. them 'divide the fans into camps and make them go tribal and fight for our amusement / profit' marketing gimmick.

[JKtheMac]

Indeed, I'm actually surprised that the 'A vs. X nonsense' is still going on.

I am not convinced it is still going on. There has always been a rivalry based on the type of books people enjoy. The two franchises are aimed at different tastes. Indeed you could add Fantastic Four to that mix as three books that each took different approaches to superhero teams. Not everyone is going to enjoy all three approaches. Power / Family / Culture.

I have absolutely nothing against AvX. It corresponds to the time I got back into comics and I enjoyed it a lot. Mainly because it allowed me to enjoy the whole universe ‘together’ again. I never took that rivalry too seriously even though I have always been more a fan of X comics. But any fan of X-Men will testify how difficult that fandom can be depending on the highly variable writing talent.

To the OP.
It is a little silly in my eyes to consider the Avengers moniker as having to be ‘meaningful’. Anybody can be an Avenger. The whole point of that franchise was to throw together a team of different popular heroes. That is how it differs from the other two team types. As long as the character can be considered a superhero and they are popular they can be an Avenger. It means nothing more and never has.

[Digifiend]

Other than mutants, who have their own franchise and "everybody can be in it" team... is there any remaining superhero who has not been an avenger yet? Even Blade got his chance by now.

Mostly younger heroes. From the New Warriors, only Rage, Firestar, Justice, and Nova have been Avengers - and Nova was only briefly on a Secret Avengers team. From the Young Avengers, Jonas Vision and Stature joined the Mighty Avengers in Dark Reign, and Wiccan and Hulkling were on Sunspot's New Avengers team. Ms. Marvel, Spider-Man, Nova and Wasp from the Champions were previously on Mark Waid's Avengers team, and Power Man was on Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers and New Avengers. All three teams have many other members who were never official Avengers.

[Gaastra]

Anyone remember when being an Avenger was a badge of honor?

Well hulk wasn't treated to well in the early days. Not trusting the hulk making him leave then chasing him all over the place yet he was just fine in over 100 issues of the defenders without any trouble? At least in the cartoon wasp talks to hulk and asks him to come back in that version!

[davew128]

I came on board to the Avengers durning Bendis; I never knew the Avengers were an honorific team.

I mean do the heroes themselves see it as some honor or is it merely heroes coming together to fight some big bad?

Its an honor. Time was, being the chairperson was a big deal, and when they had significant roster turnovers and membership changes, they literally had press conferences outside the mansion.

[JKtheMac]

Its an honor. Time was, being the chairperson was a big deal, and when they had significant roster turnovers and membership changes, they literally had press conferences outside the mansion.

No idea when that time was. It seemed to be handed around like a hot potato.

[Tony Stark]

Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Magneto....

Straight and to the point. Very well said.