Superman in BvS Film

[Soubhagya]

Darker and edgier!! I don't get the appeal!

The fact that Nolan narrowed it down to those two lends further credence to the idea that Batman creators don't always have the best input when it comes to Superman.

Looking at Aronofsky's filmography, I don't see how anyone comes away thinking "this guy would be great for a wide appeal Superman movie."

People can sometimes surprise you. Looking at most works of Mark Millar i don't see a guy who can write a great Superman. Perhaps even Alan Moore does not look like a guy who should be writing Superman.

Same way i think about movies. For all the talk about grim and gritty Nolan's Batman was pretty uplifting and entertaining. No offence to those who like Zack Snyder but i think he lacks something. He does great visual stuff and action. But i don't think any of his films really impress me. His characters can be flat or seem lacking in depth. Sometimes that turns out good. 300 is over the top sweet bad*ss action. Leonidas is very much in style of 80s action heroes like Schwarzenegger.

But he lacks in giving that 'life' to his characters. At least in my opinion. Even with the presence of a great number of talented actors i didn't find the characters very memorable. Aronofsky specializes in dark dramas. Dark but still about characters. He might have done better then Snyder in the parts without action. Furthermore, some good directors can do all sorts of work. Spielberg has done crime, drama, sci-fi, war. Name any genre. He might have done it.


But then i am not so sure. Goyer wrote the script chaneling Dark Knight trilogy. Remember how Lois was when she was introduced in Man of Steel? She appeared to be a fun character. But after a while she becomes Nolanized. Monologuing things like frightening questions about existence of somebody like Clark. Instead of natural dialogue we get important dialogue and/or speeches. Something present in the last two films in Nolan trilogy. But Nolan made it work.

[manwhohaseverything]

But then i am not so sure. Goyer wrote the script chaneling Dark Knight trilogy. Remember how Lois was when she was introduced in Man of Steel? She appeared to be a fun character. But after a while she becomes Nolanized. Monologuing things like frightening questions about existence of somebody like Clark. Instead of natural dialogue we get important dialogue and/or speeches. Something present in the last two films in Nolan trilogy. But Nolan made it work.

@bold she is a journalist. She would be asking "frightening" questions about existence of superman. Its her job. If she isn't doing that, she isn't doing her job.

[Soubhagya]

I only talked about 1938, because the wisecrack guy did the same and in a way that says he is knowledgeable,which i highly doubt. Why? Because he talked about lois being not afraid, which is false. The idea of him being a perfect ideal? I would say no, i don't think it has worked out. This emphasise started with donner movies. The character just became typecasted.Mordern stuff are all pretty mediocre.People say smallville like series are exceptional, i don't quite find it true. It was great show, i loved it. But, i wouldn't even call that awesome.

Well we aren't talking about the quality of the material. Good or bad is subjective. But it can't be denied that Superman had a fairly large amount of success in this way. Look at Hollywood. They keep chasing trends. Trying and retrying what worked before. Same is with Superman. Superman 1978 was a smash hit. First major superhero film. Even before that therehas been presence of Superman in some way. TV, radio, cartoons. I think among the comic book characters Superman has the most number of comics ever sold.

I disagree. It's entirely based on the material. The guy is written to have a stick up his ass,most of the time. That could work with certain types of humour. But, superman has only gone for that a couple of time. Othertimes(which is 90%)He comes of bland and robotic.You guys trivialise snyder fans for so called "anecdotal" evidence to superman smiling . But, the books are all about a savior who isn't in touch with himself aka naive farmboy saviour. When that is brought up for you guys, you do the same. So much so that the writer force something like him blowing up with anger or being morally rigid. These aren't done in a tasteful manner either. It's a desperate attempt to make the character appealing without, making fanbase feel like they are losing the saviour boyscout. Who is goody two shoes.I don't know if it's ideal or whatnot. He might not be invincible. He is entirely lazy. There is no fire or passion in the dude. I would take lex as superman anyday of the week.

Hard work isn't a bad thing. Just cause a villain said it.

My God! You are reading too much 2000s comics!

There is a good and a bad way to do this. I find that out when i read them. For me the best Superman has some sort of humor to go along with it. Donner's Superman is goody two shoes. But to balance it we have Clark Kent. A very crude example would be dividing Iron Man into two people. One person who is practically like Captain America. And the other is Tony Stark without his redeeming qualities. Inspite of being a douchebag Stark displayed a lot of admirable qualities. What if one character has all the shortcomings? And the other all the perfections? Tony Stark is one character displaying both good and the not so good qualities.

But Superman tends to separate the two sides. That's why many prefer Clark Kent over Superman in Donner films. He is pretending to be Clark. But there is more truth to Clark Kent then even he might be knowing himself. But since Superman is in the forefront, that's what people tend to remember the most including the writers.

@bold she is a journalist. She would be asking "frightening" questions about existence of superman. Its her job. If she isn't doing that, she isn't doing her job.

And that is interesting to hear in a movie? In my opinion it is not. Everyone in these movies sound very important.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well we aren't talking about the quality of the material. Good or bad is subjective. But it can't be denied that Superman had a fairly large amount of success in this way. Look at Hollywood. They keep chasing trends. Trying and retrying what worked before. Same is with Superman. Superman 1978 was a smash hit. First major superhero film. Even before that therehas been presence of Superman in some way. TV, radio, cartoons. I think among the comic book characters Superman has the most number of comics ever sold.



My God! You are reading too much 2000s comics!

There is a good and a bad way to do this. I find that out when i read them. For me the best Superman has some sort of humor to go along with it. Donner's Superman is goody two shoes. But to balance it we have Clark Kent. A very crude example would be dividing Iron Man into two people. One person who is practically like Captain America. And the other is Tony Stark without his redeeming qualities. Inspite of being a douchebag Stark displayed a lot of admirable qualities. What if one character has all the shortcomings? And the other all the perfections? Tony Stark is a great character because he is one guy having both the sides.

But Superman tends to separate the two sides. That's why many prefer Clark Kent over Superman in Donner films. He is pretending to be Clark. But there is more truth to Clark Kent then even he might be knowing himself. But since Superman is in the forefront, that's what people tend to remember the most including the writers.


And that is interesting to hear in a movie? In my opinion it is not. Everyone in these movies sound very important.

His smash hit movie was 40 years ago. As for comics sold, if one piece goes strong(it won't the author is planning to end it) another two decade it would overtake superman. Which would be ironic. Since, i find luffy acting more superman than superman many a times.And superman does pretty average saleswise comics.

Having humor has nothing to do with what i was talking about. Clark kent persona is lanky, short, nerdy, timid, terrified, basically completely wierd dude. He is as much goody two shoes as superman is. I don't see it balancing out anything. Superman doesn't have multiple personality disorder. I don't understand what are you talking about here. He isn't the hulk. Superman is aka the real clark kent pretending to fake persona, like you said. But, how does that matter. Unless you were going for the Superdickery moments were clark basically allows lois to fall from a building. That still doesn't mean much. Those were fun, as said. If superman smiling in man of steel anecdotal so is this.


It is for me. Lois and clark as vehicle need to ask hard hitting questions, get answers and enunciate "the truth".

[manwhohaseverything]

This was more interesting than the entire justice league movie.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

One of the first things we see Superman doing is saving some people from a burning oil rig. Later he defends a woman being sexually harassed. He later seeks out the ship after learning of it and actively opposes Zod. This idea he is a passive character is inaccurate and relies on a tortured definition of passive to even be believable.

Not to mention there was an actual montage in BvS of Superman doing "superhero things"...

The fact it is 4 years later and this film still gets talked about shows that this film did more for Superman then some fans like to admit.

[Vordan]

Not to mention there was an actual montage in BvS of Superman doing "superhero things"...

The fact it is 4 years later and this film still gets talked about shows that this film did more for Superman then some fans like to admit.

I hardly think our current status is one to be happy about. BvS gets talked about because it was one of the most colossal failures ever. A movie that was meant to kick off a cinematic universe instead killed it. The first onscreen meeting of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman failed to make as much as a solo Batman movie or a Black Panther movie. Batman has had to be completely rebooted while Superman has been put on the shelf and left to rot. Ironically Snyder’s biggest impact was that he made DC move away from what he was trying to do. The DC movies are much more light hearted and comedic now. Snyder didn’t do anything for Superman. We’re right back where we started after Returns, waiting to see what WB does next. His influence on Superman has been little to none, contrast with how much the Donner films impacted the comics, or the DCAU, and Snyder comes up painfully short.

People can sometimes surprise you. Looking at most works of Mark Millar i don't see a guy who can write a great Superman. Perhaps even Alan Moore does not look like a guy who should be writing Superman.

Same way i think about movies. For all the talk about grim and gritty Nolan's Batman was pretty uplifting and entertaining. No offence to those who like Zack Snyder but i think he lacks something. He does great visual stuff and action. But i don't think any of his films really impress me. His characters can be flat or seem lacking in depth. Sometimes that turns out good. 300 is over the top sweet bad*ss action. Leonidas is very much in style of 80s action heroes like Schwarzenegger.

But he lacks in giving that 'life' to his characters. At least in my opinion. Even with the presence of a great number of talented actors i didn't find the characters very memorable. Aronofsky specializes in dark dramas. Dark but still about characters. He might have done better then Snyder in the parts without action. Furthermore, some good directors can do all sorts of work. Spielberg has done crime, drama, sci-fi, war. Name any genre. He might have done it.


But then i am not so sure. Goyer wrote the script chaneling Dark Knight trilogy. Remember how Lois was when she was introduced in Man of Steel? She appeared to be a fun character. But after a while she becomes Nolanized. Monologuing things like frightening questions about existence of somebody like Clark. Instead of natural dialogue we get important dialogue and/or speeches. Something present in the last two films in Nolan trilogy. But Nolan made it work.

Ironically Nolan’s Batman is one of the most mentally and emotionally healthy Batmen since Miller. He stops being Batman twice. He falls in love. He wants to help people and not just brutally beat people up. For all the dark and gritty there was humor and heart too as opposed to the rather soulless destruction porn of the Snyder era.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's also really only us nerds talking about it, and usually the same stuff, over and over again. Because we refuse to let it go (on either side of the fence).

The GA has pretty much gotten over it and don't care about it anymore. They didn't like the initial vision of the DCEU and rejected it aside from a handful of things that made it into the hands of other creators (Gadot, Mamoa, Robbie), but don't concern themselves with it anymore either.

[stargazer01]

I've noticed that BvS is more appreciated by those who never liked Superman or thought he was boring.

I find him mostly boring in that movie because he is too gloomy and charmless. It's not just that we want him to be smiling nonstop. At least I don't. But the fact he has no charisma in it due to the writing and direction. Wonder Woman steals the show.

Also, yes, Superman did save people in the movie and during that time after MOS, the problem is WE DIDN'T SEE HIM DOING IT AND THE PEOPLE'S REACTION AND HOW THEY LIKED OR NOT SUPERMAN. We mostly see him from afar like this untouchable god. It's why that scene in Death of Superman when he saves the little kid and his toy is much more powerful because we can see both their reactions. We can see the kid loves him! But I guess that's too cheesy for the Snyder clan.


The Nolan Batman movies get so much love, but I don't see what's the big deal. I find them alright. Guess I don't love the Batman like most people.

[Agent Z]

Well we're getting a cw show that is the opposite of the Snyder movies so it isn't like anyone who hated BvS doesn't have other versions of Superman they can enjoy.

It's also really only us nerds talking about it, and usually the same stuff, over and over again. Because we refuse to let it go (on either side of the fence).

The GA has pretty much gotten over it and don't care about it anymore. They didn't like the initial vision of the DCEU and rejected it aside from a handful of things that made it into the hands of other creators (Gadot, Mamoa, Robbie), but don't concern themselves with it anymore either.

The GA doesn't talk about movies as much as nerds. Us discussing it is really no bearing as to how much it "failed" or not. Having a loud online hate mob doesn't necessarily translate to an accurate view of how much a movie was or wasn't liked.

[SiegePerilous02]

The GA doesn't talk about movies as much as nerds. Us discussing it is really no bearing as to how much it "failed" or not. Having a loud online hate mob doesn't necessarily translate to an accurate view of how much a movie was or wasn't liked.

The steep second weekend box office drop and poor word of mouth might tell us though. That typically doesn't happen if a movie is liked.

The hate mob is loud. So is the cult mob.

[manwhohaseverything]

The steep second weekend box office drop and poor word of mouth might tell us though. That typically doesn't happen if a movie is liked.

Or it got marketed/advertised towards wrong demographic. They were pushing snyder movies as standard superhero stuff and on top of that bvs was edited badly. Some where expecting Darknight returns or batman/superman world's finest(dcau) in live action form. We should be thanking they didn't make either of those. Because superman might have gotten another movie. But, the chances of it being an actual superman would have been less. Its because snyder likes superman that batman is a villain in bvs.

Bvs theatrical can get confusing and boring.But, Something you cannot say is snyder didn't think hard on these movies or do his research. Especially, when later movies are just pure entertainers like shazam. Marvel too has tons of those.

[DochaDocha]

The scale of BvS pretty much dictates that even if a lot of people loved it or hated it, there's going to be a few million people who felt oppositely.

From what I read a few years ago, the movie made a small profit, but due to the sheer amount of resources pumped into it, the ROI just wasn't that great. It's not the biggest bust there ever was (and Justice League was far worse in that regard), but I think as far as box office returns, critical review, and audience reception go WB categorizes this movie under "disappointment" or "underperforming."

[Soubhagya]

His smash hit movie was 40 years ago. As for comics sold, if one piece goes strong(it won't the author is planning to end it) another two decade it would overtake superman. Which would be ironic. Since, i find luffy acting more superman than superman many a times.And superman does pretty average saleswise comics.

Hard facts can't be denied. Irrespective of what numbers Superman does now and its an industry wide situation too, the character has sold more comics then any other character in history. Had forays into other media with varying dgrees of success over 80 years. If this can't be considered successful, i don't know what can be.

Having humor has nothing to do with what i was talking about. Clark kent persona is lanky, short, nerdy, timid, terrified, basically completely wierd dude. He is as much goody two shoes as superman is. I don't see it balancing out anything. Superman doesn't have multiple personality disorder. I don't understand what are you talking about here. He isn't the hulk. Superman is aka the real clark kent pretending to fake persona, like you said. But, how does that matter. Unless you were going for the Superdickery moments were clark basically allows lois to fall from a building. That still doesn't mean much. Those were fun, as said. If superman smiling in man of steel anecdotal so is this.


It is for me. Lois and clark as vehicle need to ask hard hitting questions, get answers and enunciate "the truth".

So, what do you want to see in Superman? What do you mean by asking hard hitting questions and enunciating 'the truth'.

I think you are not among the kind of fans who have love for Silver Age style of stories. Those stories did not have to mean something, or Superman had some great purpose. He was a tad uninteresting as a character too. But the stories had a different kind of appeal. A bunch of crazy sci-fi stories full of imagination akin to children's stories or fairytales. I could be wrong but for better or worse, that is more inflential to the character then when the character started out.

[Soubhagya]

This was more interesting than the entire justice league movie.

I don't get it. Does this give me goosebumps even now? Yes. But how is this compared to a full movie? Its a bit of promo. Advertising. The final product may or may not reflect that.

I have to admit that i enjoyed Superman far more in Justice League then in any of the previous movies. Nostalgia is a strange thing. Nothing worthwhile was done to the character in the movie. Not even the engagement with Lois as hinted in the trailer. But he did cool stuff while being cool. Like one might enjoy Bond in movies before Craig. Just a cool guy doing cool stuff.

I hardly think our current status is one to be happy about. BvS gets talked about because it was one of the most colossal failures ever. A movie that was meant to kick off a cinematic universe instead killed it. The first onscreen meeting of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman failed to make as much as a solo Batman movie or a Black Panther movie. Batman has had to be completely rebooted while Superman has been put on the shelf and left to rot. Ironically Snyder’s biggest impact was that he made DC move away from what he was trying to do. The DC movies are much more light hearted and comedic now. Snyder didn’t do anything for Superman. We’re right back where we started after Returns, waiting to see what WB does next. His influence on Superman has been little to none, contrast with how much the Donner films impacted the comics, or the DCAU, and Snyder comes up painfully short.

Yes, that's true. I would again point to the fact that this approach to Superman was different then before. Doing something different when there is an existing fanbase is riskier.

Ironically Nolan’s Batman is one of the most mentally and emotionally healthy Batmen since Miller. He stops being Batman twice. He falls in love. He wants to help people and not just brutally beat people up. For all the dark and gritty there was humor and heart too as opposed to the rather soulless destruction porn of the Snyder era.

True. The beauty of Nolan's Batman films are they are the usual blockbuster fare but intelligent. Not everyone can pull that off to such success. Sadly, Snyder couldn't. Still i appreciate the ideas. They tried to make smart movies. It just didn't work out as everyone wanted.

I've noticed that BvS is more appreciated by those who never liked Superman or thought he was boring.

Yes, i have heard the same. I also have heard of people who liked these films and who liked the previous ones too. I don't know what to make of it.

I find him mostly boring in that movie because he is too gloomy and charmless. It's not just that we want him to be smiling nonstop. At least I don't. But the fact he has no charisma in it due to the writing and direction. Wonder Woman steals the show.

Yeah. I am more or less in the same page. I want to like the character, but Henry Cavill's performance have always felt a bit uninteresting to me. Not bad. Just not very interesting. I don't understand how people say its the best Superman. If someone likes it. Fine. But i don't see him stretching the acting muscles like Reeve who was playing two characters in one movie.

Also, yes, Superman did save people in the movie and during that time after MOS, the problem is WE DIDN'T SEE HIM DOING IT AND THE PEOPLE'S REACTION AND HOW THEY LIKED OR NOT SUPERMAN. We mostly see him from afar like this untouchable god. It's why that scene in Death of Superman when he saves the little kid and his toy is much more powerful because we can see both their reactions. We can see the kid loves him! But I guess that's too cheesy for the Snyder clan.

I am going to repost a video from the last page. This clip from Amazing Spider-man 2 is a very similar scene and imo does it much better. I am speaking about Superman being Superman scenes from BvS over talking heads in TV.



And this is from BvS.

https://youtu.be/rsWGdZoo1xY

This is a good summary of how they approach with their respective characters.

The Nolan Batman movies get so much love, but I don't see what's the big deal. I find them alright. Guess I don't love the Batman like most people.

There is lot more to it, but in short Nolan's films were more then just a superhero punching bad guys over explosions. It asked questions like whether Batman himself was the reason why villains like Joker and Bane pop up in Gotham. These are well made and wildly successful movies that give more stuff to think and talk about then how Thanos could have been stopped if Starlord wasn't an idiot.