Has DC continuity gotten more confusing since Crisis on Infinite Earths?

[Buried Alien]

Well, yes.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[9th.]

I'm gonna go with yes

[bat39]

The ORIGINAL plan after the original Crisis on Infinite Earths was for the entire DCU to be started from scratch.
Ultimately, TPTB blinked, and decided to pick & choose what to keep & what to throw out which lead to issues again which needed to be addressed in Zero Hour, which needed to addressed ad nauseam....

So, I decided to read up a bit on this, by checking out some Marv Wolfman interviews.

https://13thdimension.com/why-marv-w...ing-to-crisis/

I was quiet interested to learn that COIE was always planned to be a reboot - in fact Wolfman saw the story itself as more of a plot device to usher in the new reality (though he tried to make it as epic a plot device as possible!) and was surprised by its legendary status as a story in its own right. But DC overruled his decision to do a hard reboot, and instead had the major characters remember the previous reality. In his own words...

But all the editors overruled it so that’s why I had the heroes go back in time to before the world is reformed, so that they would be around to have remembered it. They didn’t cease to exist and get reborn. They were there the whole time. Then it was five years of everybody talking about, “What really happened in the Crisis?” which is, I knew, what would happen.

The strange thing is, DC then proceeded to wipe these characters' memories of the the Multiverse and the previous timeline anyway, and hard-rebooted a few characters. The status quo at the end of COIE#12, with a merged earth where some of the heroes remembered the Multiverse, didn't last long. So I'm not really sure what they hoped to achieve by changing Marv's ending. The universe could have been rebooted completely, and they could have chosen to whatever past canon they wanted to anyway, without anyone remembering the Multiverse.

The one contribution of Marv's final ending to the future of the DCU, I guess, was giving Kal L and Lois a happy ending (at least until IC came along).

[SixSpeedSamurai]

It was fine until 52/Final Crisis.

[Dr. Poison]

Big time. Things were much simpler to understand before Crisis On Infinite Earths. Don't get me wrong, Criss was a phenomenal story but it's after-effects still ripple on to this day and some not in a good way. So many characters were subject to reboots and revisions over the years such as Wonder Woman, Donna Troy, Hawkman, Power Girl, the Legion of Super Heroes, the Doom Patrol, Wonder Woman's replacement in the JSA, etc.

[Dr. Ellingham]

To my understanding, the main intention of Crisis on Infinite Earths was to make DC continuity less confusing for new readers

Yes - simplifying the continuity was one priority, but not the main priority.

The primary goal was to get your average comic fan to read a DC book again - because they weren't: Marvel owned 75% of the market in those days, and even their lower selling titles outsold Batman, JLA, etc. DC was struggling to stay in second place.

They needed to retool the characters to make them sellable to the teenage fans that were buying every Marvel comic - which how the term"Marvel zombie" became a thing. That was the intent, and it explains their talent choices on their main books - John Byrne, Frank Miller, George Perez, etc. They wanted creators Marvel fans would want to check out. And it worked. Kinda. At least for a little while - though they were already in the same boat 5 years later...

[superduperman]

So, I decided to read up a bit on this, by checking out some Marv Wolfman interviews.

https://13thdimension.com/why-marv-w...ing-to-crisis/

I was quiet interested to learn that COIE was always planned to be a reboot - in fact Wolfman saw the story itself as more of a plot device to usher in the new reality (though he tried to make it as epic a plot device as possible!) and was surprised by its legendary status as a story in its own right. But DC overruled his decision to do a hard reboot, and instead had the major characters remember the previous reality. In his own words...



The strange thing is, DC then proceeded to wipe these characters' memories of the the Multiverse and the previous timeline anyway, and hard-rebooted a few characters. The status quo at the end of COIE#12, with a merged earth where some of the heroes remembered the Multiverse, didn't last long. So I'm not really sure what they hoped to achieve by changing Marv's ending. The universe could have been rebooted completely, and they could have chosen to whatever past canon they wanted to anyway, without anyone remembering the Multiverse.

The one contribution of Marv's final ending to the future of the DCU, I guess, was giving Kal L and Lois a happy ending (at least until IC came along).

That's what got me. No one remembered anything anyway. Superman didn't remember his pre-Crisis history. He didn't remember Kara. It's not clear if he even remembered Kal-L, though IC kind of implies he didn't. But he DID remember the Earth Prime Superboy. At least the first couple years anyway. Even the people who fought Wolfman on it later admitted that he was right. Everyone should have gotten a hard start at zero. I'm mixed on COIE. I hated it. I hated the way it rebooted Superman. I think it created more problems than it solved. But it's hard to argue it wasn't necessary. The company would not be here today without it. DC should have started writing more mature stuff in the seventies and they didn't. And it put them in a bind. To some degree having the same people working on some of these books since the fifties was the problem. You had guys making books for kids when the age bracket had moved up.

[Tzigone]

DC should have started writing more mature stuff in the seventies and they didn't.

I disagree quite strongly - I think the 1970s had a lot of more mature stories than the earlier age. Oh, some titles kept (or reverted to after a brief blip) a silver-age vibe, but many did not. The JLA stories from the 1970s and 1960s are miles apart.

To some degree having the same people working on some of these books since the fifties was the problem. You had guys making books for kids when the age bracket had moved up.

Well, there was as least something of a purge in 1968, though I don't know how big it was.

[phantom1592]

I'm mixed on COIE. I hated it. I hated the way it rebooted Superman. I think it created more problems than it solved.

Honestly, i always found it overrated. It had a HUGE cast of characters... but I honestly didn't care about very many of them. They split people up into i think 5 teams... and there were a massive number of B and C list characters that were complete unknowns to me. There were some serious gutwrenching moments like Supergirl and Flash dying... and then a bunch of other deaths that meant nothing at all to me. It was a story with an agenda.. not so much a story for the story itself. The more time that has passed and the more reboots that have happened, the less emotion i feel for it.

Compared to something like Marvel's Secret Wars... which teamed up the A-list Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-men and solos Hulk and Spider-man where everyone got to do something awesome and nobody is basically wallpaper. It was basically a primer to the Marvel Universe.... That story I still love.

Crisis was written strictly for people who already knew everyone there was to know and they didn't waste much time on the individual characters.


As for the creating/solving problems... I was in a weird place. I had a ton of old silver age books from Dad (mostly superman) and I was just starting to get into comics on my own around 89-90... so i was starting with post crisis... and researching and back tracking pre-crisis and i didn't have any trouble at all. Some of the changes were dumb some were fine. It's just the way it was. Having a pre- and a post- wasn't hard to juggle... until they did it every 5 years or so.. Now it's just an unmanageable mess.

But it's hard to argue it wasn't necessary. The company would not be here today without it.

That I doubt. Marvel actually DID file bankruptcy and sold off a lot of assets. and they're still kicking. Comic companies have high levels and low levels and i don't really believe that without that one gimmick they wouldn't be here. Batman was already getting more serious... and '89 was right around the corner so Batman would still have taken the movie world by storm.

[Tzigone]

The more time that has passed and the more reboots that have happened, the less emotion i feel for it.

Someone earlier said how exciting it was in the first couple years after COIE when reboots were happening and new backstories being revealed and it wasn't really known when that would end. I find it very frustrating with Rebirth. I do wonder if the difference exactly is that there have been more reboots since. It's not some new (and therefore at least potentially exciting) thing. It's been done. Several times. And not always to positive effect, especially in the long-term. Or it's just that we're fans that are aware of the history of it happening several times (even if I haven't read nearly all of it or been reading a really long time), and so don't "buy" it (much like the deaths), and are just jaded and bored. Maybe all those number 1s sell better not because of collectors but because fans not deeply invested actually are excited by the idea of things changing (even if they don't seem to stick around long after new reality settles in). Then again, maybe that is the difference - COIE seems to have resulted in a longer term increase in sales, from what I know.

[SiegePerilous02]

COIE had awesome art, that showcased how awesome the Multiverse was just as it was killing it and replacing it with something more mundane.

Beyond the art and the deaths of Kara and Barry (the former being very undercut knowing how she would subsequently be erased), it's really not that great of a story.

Not worth losing Perez on NTT over.

[phantom1592]

Someone earlier said how exciting it was in the first couple years after COIE when reboots were happening and new backstories being revealed and it wasn't really known when that would end. I find it very frustrating with Rebirth. I do wonder if the difference exactly is that there have been more reboots since. It's not some new (and therefore at least potentially exciting) thing. It's been done. Several times. And not always to positive effect, especially in the long-term. Or it's just that we're fans that are aware of the history of it happening several times (even if I haven't read nearly all of it or been reading a really long time), and so don't "buy" it (much like the deaths), and are just jaded and bored. Maybe all those number 1s sell better not because of collectors but because fans not deeply invested actually are excited by the idea of things changing (even if they don't seem to stick around long after new reality settles in). Then again, maybe that is the difference - COIE seems to have resulted in a longer term increase in sales, from what I know.

I think that's all part of it.

For me at least, It was interesting to see 'the first times' for our heroes. I had seen reprints of Hal Jordan's origin and Barry Allen's origin.... but they were pretty dated and not very good. Silver Age stories take a certain mindset to actually read... and Golden Age stories are infinitely harder for me. I love the characters. I love the costumes and designs... but the dialogue and artwork??? You can really tell the creators were being paid a nickle a page and were cranking them out as fast as possible.

Post Crisis we had MODERN storytelling... with MODERN art.. and the stories were stretched out into a mini series instead of a single issue... or 4 pages sometimes... and it felt deep an important. I had never seen even a reprint of Action comics #1... so seeing Clark meet Lois for the first time or fly for the first time or join the daily planet and meet Jimmy or Lex... was EXCITING!

Now?? I've seen it all before. The differences between 80's and 90's story and 2010 or 2020 story isn't that different. It just feels like a cash grab and not an important foundation for your heroes. Add in the fact that with tpb and reprints.... all those 80's and 90's origins are still as easy to get now (or easier) than they were back then. We don't NEED new tellings for a new generation... they still have access to these.

[superduperman]

Honestly, i always found it overrated. It had a HUGE cast of characters... but I honestly didn't care about very many of them. They split people up into i think 5 teams... and there were a massive number of B and C list characters that were complete unknowns to me. There were some serious gutwrenching moments like Supergirl and Flash dying... and then a bunch of other deaths that meant nothing at all to me. It was a story with an agenda.. not so much a story for the story itself. The more time that has passed and the more reboots that have happened, the less emotion i feel for it.

Compared to something like Marvel's Secret Wars... which teamed up the A-list Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-men and solos Hulk and Spider-man where everyone got to do something awesome and nobody is basically wallpaper. It was basically a primer to the Marvel Universe.... That story I still love.

Crisis was written strictly for people who already knew everyone there was to know and they didn't waste much time on the individual characters.


As for the creating/solving problems... I was in a weird place. I had a ton of old silver age books from Dad (mostly superman) and I was just starting to get into comics on my own around 89-90... so i was starting with post crisis... and researching and back tracking pre-crisis and i didn't have any trouble at all. Some of the changes were dumb some were fine. It's just the way it was. Having a pre- and a post- wasn't hard to juggle... until they did it every 5 years or so.. Now it's just an unmanageable mess.





That I doubt. Marvel actually DID file bankruptcy and sold off a lot of assets. and they're still kicking. Comic companies have high levels and low levels and i don't really believe that without that one gimmick they wouldn't be here. Batman was already getting more serious... and '89 was right around the corner so Batman would still have taken the movie world by storm.

Maybe, maybe not. I read somewhere that at the time COIE came out DC had a 13% share of the marketplace. 13%! The company that literally invented the concept of the superhero only had a fraction of the sales. And Batman may have been maturing but Superman wasn't. He wasn't allowed to. Because he had the same editors since the 1950s. And this was after he'd had three movies come out! Could things have been done to prevent the reboot? Maybe. But it was too late by 1985. Maybe if they'd started a decade earlier. A good chunk of the books were on the verge of cancellation. Flash. Wonder Woman. And, although I've never heard anyone admit it, probably Superman himself.

There's a lot of speculation that there were things they could have done to bring in new readers besides reboot. But we don't know for sure they would have worked. This was a Hail Mary play. When Marvel was looking at picking them up the year before, that's a sign it's time to change direction and that maybe Marvel was doing something right.