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  1. #31
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    You say it as if Old Cable wasn't a time traveling character.
    I would include him too, and Rachel who's been left adrift with no storyline of her own since Claremont brought her back. Bishop can stay bc he's sexy.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    My least favorite convoluted aspect is Madelyne Pryor and Psylocke/Kwannon. It is impossible to explain all the retcon there are, it is ridiculous.
    Lady Mandarin should've been Karma. Betsy Braddock could've appeared anywhere anytime else. Had Karma been rescued from the Hand by Wolverine and Jubilee, we'd have sailed into the 90s with a New Mutant graduate in the big league, a badass lesbian with an iconic look and presence in the X-Men pantheon. But then, who're we kidding? She'd never have been a lesbian if she was a central X-Men character.

    Quote Originally Posted by coveredinbees View Post
    I hate when they change powers.
    Betsy Braddock is was a mess BEFORE Siege Perilous. A precognitive who learned a ranged telepathic blast, who then learned to be a standard telepath... and then later the whole telekinetic nonsense with Jean Grey.

    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    Time travelling characters need to conclude their storylines and go back to their timelines. Like no one needed Kid Cable to keep hanging around after Extermination/X-Force
    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    You say it as if Old Cable wasn't a time traveling character.
    I used to advocate for Bishop being retconned and smushed into the Cable role in almost every way possible. I thought it would've been a better way to insert a redundant character role with an iconic look --into a more iconic character role with a redundant look. But now... I wonder if we could've foregone the entire time-travel aspect and used Bishop to explore the Hellfire Organization's security detail. Like Lucas, Randall, and Malcolm were all "Bishops" assigned to protect Hellfire assets and personnel but Lucas joined the X-Men after a hostile takeover that killed his team and most of the Academy. We could omit all the time-travel garbage, get rid of the idiotic tattoo, and have Bishop available as a counterpoint to Emma Frost's opinion on international affairs and secret Hellfire matters. He'd still have a hardass military persona, and a penchant for weaponry, but this way he'd have a family and a backstory with which he could actually interact.

  3. #33
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    When Claremont came back and started using Bishop, he tied him to the one black male character (or as far as Aborigines could be considered black) that he himself created.

    If he was going to tackle Bishop’s present day ancestors, he could have at least, created new ones.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Lady Mandarin should've been Karma. Betsy Braddock could've appeared anywhere anytime else. Had Karma been rescued from the Hand by Wolverine and Jubilee, we'd have sailed into the 90s with a New Mutant graduate in the big league, a badass lesbian with an iconic look and presence in the X-Men pantheon. But then, who're we kidding? She'd never have been a lesbian if she was a central X-Men character.



    Betsy Braddock is was a mess BEFORE Siege Perilous. A precognitive who learned a ranged telepathic blast, who then learned to be a standard telepath... and then later the whole telekinetic nonsense with Jean Grey.





    I used to advocate for Bishop being retconned and smushed into the Cable role in almost every way possible. I thought it would've been a better way to insert a redundant character role with an iconic look --into a more iconic character role with a redundant look. But now... I wonder if we could've foregone the entire time-travel aspect and used Bishop to explore the Hellfire Organization's security detail. Like Lucas, Randall, and Malcolm were all "Bishops" assigned to protect Hellfire assets and personnel but Lucas joined the X-Men after a hostile takeover that killed his team and most of the Academy. We could omit all the time-travel garbage, get rid of the idiotic tattoo, and have Bishop available as a counterpoint to Emma Frost's opinion on international affairs and secret Hellfire matters. He'd still have a hardass military persona, and a penchant for weaponry, but this way he'd have a family and a backstory with which he could actually interact.
    Damn that's actually not a bad idea. I hate "when time travel goes wrong" characters. I have to believe that writers can tell better stories with him and just bury the time travel aspect overall, and while they at drop the guns and just refine his mutation into one that's not so passive and reactive.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Damn that's actually not a bad idea.
    It means a lot to me that YOU like this idea. I know what you fight for.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    It means a lot to me that YOU like this idea. I know what you fight for.
    Call it like I see it, my friend. Your concept is solid and it even answer that question you threw out in the other thread about reimagining Bish!

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Lady Mandarin should've been Karma. Betsy Braddock could've appeared anywhere anytime else. Had Karma been rescued from the Hand by Wolverine and Jubilee, we'd have sailed into the 90s with a New Mutant graduate in the big league, a badass lesbian with an iconic look and presence in the X-Men pantheon. But then, who're we kidding? She'd never have been a lesbian if she was a central X-Men character.
    Dang throw in Taki as her partner/love interest and it'd be perfect lol

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I wonder if we could've foregone the entire time-travel aspect and used Bishop to explore the Hellfire Organization's security detail. Like Lucas, Randall, and Malcolm were all "Bishops" assigned to protect Hellfire assets and personnel but Lucas joined the X-Men after a hostile takeover that killed his team and most of the Academy. We could omit all the time-travel garbage, get rid of the idiotic tattoo, and have Bishop available as a counterpoint to Emma Frost's opinion on international affairs and secret Hellfire matters. He'd still have a hardass military persona, and a penchant for weaponry, but this way he'd have a family and a backstory with which he could actually interact.
    Where would his family come from tho?
    GrindrStone(D)

  8. #38
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    I would include him too, and Rachel who's been left adrift with no storyline of her own since Claremont brought her back. Bishop can stay bc he's sexy.
    To be fair to Cable, OG or otherwise, he was born in this era. And he’s been an X-men mainstay for 30 years. Like I said, I’d love to see them just simplify the character a bit using DoX. Since you can’t really jettison his convoluted backstory at this point, without some sort of massive retcon that would likely just make it worse IMO, instead maybe streamline the character’s aesthetic and his power set a bit. Like I said before, I really enjoyed Spurrier’s X-Force run (which is underrated and was hampered by the art) where he basically just had some mild precognition and that was all that remained of his psychic powers. He did have a bionic arm, but it was just straight bionic. Not techno-organic (at this point he’d been cured of it).

    Would be interesting to see a Cable without the T-O virus, and very limited psychic powers like that, who relied more on advanced weapons and technology in a fight. I say The Five brings him back like that at some point... whenever we’re rid of Kid Cable. So no huge shoulder pads and pouches, no techno-organic virus or even bionic parts, no eye scars... fully whole, and made so by The Five. Without his full powers because they burn him out and kill him over time, so powers greatly reduced/altered by The Five intentionally.

    Give him a cleaner, streamlined look. Maybe something akin to this, when he had the long sleeve X-men uniform with no shoulder pads. Maybe fewer straps and pouches too (and possibly a hood; Cable looked sweet in a hood in X-Sanction)...

    Last edited by Jackraow21; 05-08-2020 at 09:17 AM.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Call it like I see it, my friend. Your concept is solid and it even answer that question you threw out in the other thread about reimagining Bish!
    :-D I hate there are so many rich rival organizations to the X-Men and none of them get explored adequately. The idea of Bishop being a Hellfire middle-man is so appealing to me specifically because the Inner Circle is exactly insular. We see Kings, Queens, and their associates bicker in their underwear, but we never see the grand strokes and violence that erupts miles away from their petty disagreements.

    We never see adult mutants that have figured out how to function in secret or to their own benefit outside of Xavier's. They're either military like Weapon X agents, ugly drecks like Morlocks, outspoken terrorists like the MLF/AoE/Hell's Belles or Nasty Boys, or mindless devotees like the Acolytes. Maybe Bishop and Shard managed to slip between the conflicts on their way to adulthood and got decent jobs with Frost Enterprises as field agents. Maybe THEY'RE the reason Shaw's Sentinels never got very far into production. Maybe Frost Holdings was managing a shipment from Brazil through NOLA ports and had to "re-acquire" them from thieves native to that region. Maybe THAT's the reason there's animosity between Bishop and Gambit. I can do this all day.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Where would his family come from tho?
    Detroit.

  10. #40
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    :-D I hate there are so many rich rival organizations to the X-Men and none of them get explored adequately. The idea of Bishop being a Hellfire middle-man is so appealing to me specifically because the Inner Circle is exactly insular. We see Kings, Queens, and their associates bicker in their underwear, but we never see the grand strokes and violence that erupts miles away from their petty disagreements.

    We never see adult mutants that have figured out how to function in secret or to their own benefit outside of Xavier's. They're either military like Weapon X agents, ugly drecks like Morlocks, outspoken terrorists like the MLF/AoE/Hell's Belles or Nasty Boys, or mindless devotees like the Acolytes. Maybe Bishop and Shard managed to slip between the conflicts on their way to adulthood and got decent jobs with Frost Enterprises as field agents. Maybe THEY'RE the reason Shaw's Sentinels never got very far into production. Maybe Frost Holdings was managing a shipment from Brazil through NOLA ports and had to "re-acquire" them from thieves native to that region. Maybe THAT's the reason there's animosity between Bishop and Gambit. I can do this all day.
    Interesting. Yeah, Bishop would definitely work better without the unnecessary time travel aspect layered into his story. I agree with that.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Interesting. Yeah, Bishop would definitely work better without the unnecessary time travel aspect layered into his story. I agree with that.
    I actually like the time travel aspect of his character. He grew up in a **** hole of a future and came back in time to prevent it coming to past. He was stranded in the past because his timeline no longer exists, he's the man out of time literally. As far as what to do with him going forward, I like him as the time cop/detective who investigates time breaches or attempts to stop cataclysmic events before they occur. Similar to what he was doing in Astonishing. What I don't want for Bishop is for him to be some Hellfire foot soldier or pawn/lackey of Emma Frost. Ideally the best thing would for him to form and lead a small team of mutants who investigates mutant issues. He would of been perfect for X-factor or a similar type book. He is currently being wasted on Marauders.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    I actually like the time travel aspect of his character. He grew up in a **** hole of a future and came back in time to prevent it coming to past. He was stranded in the past because his timeline no longer exists, he's the man out of time literally.
    You don't feel that's redundant in X-Men mythology specifically, and in time travel science fiction in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    As far as what to do with him going forward, I like him as the time cop/detective who investigates time breaches or attempts to stop cataclysmic events before they occur. Similar to what he was doing in Astonishing.
    I thought we were trying to reduce the amount of terrible time travel stories in X-Men, but you want an entire division dedicated to policing them?

    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    What I don't want for Bishop is for him to be some Hellfire foot soldier or pawn/lackey of Emma Frost. Ideally the best thing would for him to form and lead a small team of mutants who investigates mutant issues. He would of been perfect for X-factor or a similar type book. He is currently being wasted on Marauders.
    Everyone is obviously allowed their own tastes, but I certainly wasn't suggesting this revised Bishop was a lackey of Emma Frost. I was hoping people understood I was describing the team of "Bishop"s as the Hellfire Organization's equivalent to X-Men. But whereas the latter were secret vigilantes and adventurers, the former was specifically employed to deal with threats to Hellfire interests, like Roxxon, A.I.M., Genosha strikeforces. Exactly what you describe: "Ideally the best thing would for him to form and lead a small team of mutants who investigates mutant issues."

  13. #43
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    I actually like the time travel aspect of his character. He grew up in a **** hole of a future and came back in time to prevent it coming to past. He was stranded in the past because his timeline no longer exists, he's the man out of time literally. As far as what to do with him going forward, I like him as the time cop/detective who investigates time breaches or attempts to stop cataclysmic events before they occur. Similar to what he was doing in Astonishing. What I don't want for Bishop is for him to be some Hellfire foot soldier or pawn/lackey of Emma Frost. Ideally the best thing would for him to form and lead a small team of mutants who investigates mutant issues. He would of been perfect for X-factor or a similar type book. He is currently being wasted on Marauders.
    There are plenty of rough spots around the world he could've grown up in today. He doesn't have to be from the future for that.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    You don't feel that's redundant in X-Men mythology specifically, and in time travel science fiction in general?



    I thought we were trying to reduce the amount of terrible time travel stories in X-Men, but you want an entire division dedicated to policing them?



    Everyone is obviously allowed their own tastes, but I certainly wasn't suggesting this revised Bishop was a lackey of Emma Frost. I was hoping people understood I was describing the team of "Bishop"s as the Hellfire Organization's equivalent to X-Men. But whereas the latter were secret vigilantes and adventurers, the former was specifically employed to deal with threats to Hellfire interests, like Roxxon, A.I.M., Genosha strikeforces. Exactly what you describe: "Ideally the best thing would for him to form and lead a small team of mutants who investigates mutant issues."
    The idea would be that he is alerted to potential time travel issues or imminent upcoming disasters that he then intervenes to stop. No time travel on his part. As far as him forming a team, it would be a procedural type book exactly like the upcoming X-factor. No time travel shenanigans involved and maybe not based on Krakoa. Also the HFC are a bunch of elitist, entitled and overall horrible people. The old money crowd who flaunt their wealth and look down on the common people, irregardless of the mutants of the Inner Circle. I'm of the opinion that Bishop should have no affiliation with them at all, and honestly he doesn't seem the type to gravitate towards that crowd.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Oof that’s fair. I guess I don’t see it as black and white... or rather not capable of flashes of white.

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