Where does Barry Allen fit on the pecking order of DCU scientists?

[Buried Alien]

When it comes to scientific acumen, people such as Dr. Ray Palmer and Lex Luthor have Barry Allen far outclassed, but Barry did invent the Cosmic Treadmill and the Flash costume ring, and his whole schtick is applying scientific expertise to the use of superspeed. Where does Barry rank in the pecking order of DCU scientists?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BohemiaDrinker]

When it comes to scientific acumen, people such as Dr. Ray Palmer and Lex Luthor have Barry Allen far outclassed, but Barry did invent the Cosmic Treadmill and the Flash costume ring, and his whole schtick is applying scientific expertise to the use of superspeed. Where does Barry rank in the pecking order of DCU scientists?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Personally, I do like to think of Barry not as a supergenius, but as a pragmatic, curious and inteligent person who can reverse engineer lots of stuff, and has had access to more scientific knowledge than most.

Were not for his Flash persona, he'd end up more in a research, academic role.

But he is smart enough to understand 25th century tech better than say, Booster Gold.

[jetengine]

Personally, I do like to think of Barry not as a supergenius, but as a pragmatic, curious and inteligent person who can reverse engineer lots of stuff, and has had access to more scientific knowledge than most.

Were not for his Flash persona, he'd end up more in a research, academic role.

But he is smart enough to understand 25th century tech better than say, Booster Gold.

Tbf Booster Gold is a jock and a janitor so his education level isnt great

[Masterff]

Actually I am not even sure if he is even the smartest Flash....

I always got the impression that Bart Allen would outclass him..
If you read "Graduation Day" then his improvement in this very short time was impressive and he built his own Kid Flash Costume..

[Bored at 3:00AM]

In terms of forensic science, I think he's one of the better detectives in the DCU. He's not as good as Batman or Ralph, but he's on par with the rest.

Ironically, it was Barry's scientific background that held him back in terms of understanding the Speed Force. Both Max Mercury and Wally were able to surpass him because they approached their speed from a perspective not bound by science.

[JackDaw]

Personally, I do like to think of Barry not as a supergenius, but as a pragmatic, curious and inteligent person who can reverse engineer lots of stuff, and has had access to more scientific knowledge than most.

I agree....always thought it was odd that he could invent the costume in the ring..it was miles ahead of technology around at the time, and just seemed to come out of nowhere.

Cosmic treadmill I could accept more easily...it seemed fairly low tech, and I always assumed it was powered by Barry’s own speed and power rather than an engine.

[krazijoe]

Tbf Booster Gold is a jock and a janitor so his education level isnt great

Will Hunting disagrees...How do you like them apples?

[Ascended]

Yeah I don't think Barry belongs among the super scientists either. He shouldn't even be listed among the best detectives or CSI's out there.

Barry should be a skilled and competent forensics scientist, but he shouldn't be anywhere close to the insane genius levels we often see in comics. Like, if we took every CSI in America and ranked them, Barry should be in the top half, maybe even the top 25%, but that's it. And I think making him smarter than that goes against the grain of him being a Everyman.

He's the best CSI in Central City in part because he takes his time and does his due diligence while everyone else rushes through jobs. Barry's got legit skill, but it's as much his careful methodology as any innate genius. Barry's the dude who keeps his nose to the grindstone, not the dude who looks at one single clue and puts the whole mystery together because he's just that good.

His advantage largely comes from his speed; it allows him to take his time and really put as much effort as possible into each aspect of a case. In DnD there's a thing called "taking 20" where you do exactly that; if you're searching a room you literally get on your hands and knees, search every inch of the floor, search every inch of the walls and ceilings, look through every page, look in every box, you are so thorough it can take hours to look over a small room. But Barry can do the same thing in seconds. That's his major advantage; it doesn't make him smarter it just gives him more time to get the right answer.

That and his experience with advanced tech from the future or alien cultures has opened him up to theory and practices we don't have, and even if Barry doesn't understand the hard math he still understands at least a fair chunk of the theory, and can intuit some stuff from there.

As for Booster....he's a jock who didn't graduate from college (he got expelled first, right?) but he's still from the 25th century; he learned stuff in high school we don't learn until we're working on our master's. He might've barely passed his classes, but he should still have a better education than most people today. He's still an idiot, so that education will only take him so far, but he still likely knows stuff that, by today's standards, he shouldn't.

[married guy]

I don't think of Barry as a scientist.
Scientist makes me think more of Ray Palmer, Ryan Choi, Ivo.
Barry is an excellent CSI and pathologist, who would have a general knowledge of the principles the other DCU science nerds were up to - but he's not a genius.
I think of him as methodical and meticulous who has an absolutely thorough working knowledge of his own power set.
Hence the treadmill and his 'Flash Facts'.

[phantom1592]

His science knowledge always seemed to come out of nowhere. He was always listed as 'police scientist' and working with chemicals and stuff... but then his 'flash facts' were things that had nothing to do with forensics science... but then he created the ring and the treadmill without even blinking... so he's really tough to place.

He's definitely 'a scientist'... but it always feels like that was 'background' to his speed, being a cop, master of physcis and whatever else.

He wasn't the type you really saw Palmer or Batman or Green Arrow going to consult him for his scientific expertise. It was always the 'flash' part. And I think a lot of that had to do with Silver Age, and everyone being pretty self sufficient. Come Modern Age when there was a lot more character development and focus on the non-mask relationships between heroes... he was dead.

Actually I am not even sure if he is even the smartest Flash....

I always got the impression that Bart Allen would outclass him..
If you read "Graduation Day" then his improvement in this very short time was impressive and he built his own Kid Flash Costume..

Bart should be. The whole concept of remembering everything he ever read and then reading just about everything... He should hit top tier genius. I think his attention span and lack of attention to detail hold him back now... but any kind of 'future story/5G' thing should have him as full on genius.

[mikelmcknight72]

Intelligence and education/knowledge are not the same thing. The main character in Good Will Hunting was highly intelligent, but lacked formal education. Bart Allen has the capacity to be more educated than anyone, but we don't truly know how intelligent he truly is. I'd say that Bart, Barry, and Jay should probably all be considered smarter than the average person and very educated. I'm uncertain as to where Wally would fall, although he was often depicted as an "average joe".

As to the question at hand, as a scientist, I'd say Barry should be depicted as highly competent, but not on the same level as someone like Ray Palmer, Cyborg's dad, or folks like that.

[phantom1592]

Intelligence and education/knowledge are not the same thing. The main character in Good Will Hunting was highly intelligent, but lacked formal education. Bart Allen has the capacity to be more educated than anyone, but we don't truly know how intelligent he truly is. I'd say that Bart, Barry, and Jay should probably all be considered smarter than the average person and very educated. I'm uncertain as to where Wally would fall, although he was often depicted as an "average joe".

As to the question at hand, as a scientist, I'd say Barry should be depicted as highly competent, but not on the same level as someone like Ray Palmer, Cyborg's dad, or folks like that.

Jay's one I'd actually rank really low. I don't know if the old Golden Age stories showed him as some kind of scientist or something.... But the story i always see has him still in college trying some experiment with 'hard water', passing out and waking up with powers.... then Joining the football team and becoming a star. I'm pretty sure he didn't even know what he did to cause it...

He always struck me as a lovable jock who took a science course and not a full fledged scientist.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Jay's one I'd actually rank really low. I don't know if the old Golden Age stories showed him as some kind of scientist or something.... But the story i always see has him still in college trying some experiment with 'hard water', passing out and waking up with powers.... then Joining the football team and becoming a star. I'm pretty sure he didn't even know what he did to cause it...

He always struck me as a lovable jock who took a science course and not a full fledged scientist.

Jay is a bona-fide scientist. He owned Garrick Labs, which were later purchased by Wayne Enterprises, and researched nano-tech.

[phantom1592]

Jay is a bona-fide scientist. He owned Garrick Labs, which were later purchased by Wayne Enterprises, and researched nano-tech.

Really??

I've never seen him do anything with those skills before. Barry has his Flash Facts.... Wally is teaching him about Speed Force... in the JSA Mr. Terrific and Doctor Midnite do all the 'science' stuff...

Jay needs to assert himself some more in conversations involving science I guess. I guess I still have to place him at the bottom of the scientist rankings simply because he never has a better idea than any of the other scientists in the room.


On a separate note... how does one go from chemist to Nano-tech. Reminds me of Star Trek where science is science... and if your good at science you can do all the science. Geology, weapon design, warp, computer, alien biology, robotics... whatever science you have... Science is science

I'm guessing maybe Garrick Labs diversified a bit during his 'missing years'.

[achilles]

Really??

I've never seen him do anything with those skills before. Barry has his Flash Facts.... Wally is teaching him about Speed Force... in the JSA Mr. Terrific and Doctor Midnite do all the 'science' stuff...

Jay needs to assert himself some more in conversations involving science I guess. I guess I still have to place him at the bottom of the scientist rankings simply because he never has a better idea than any of the other scientists in the room.


On a separate note... how does one go from chemist to Nano-tech. Reminds me of Star Trek where science is science... and if your good at science you can do all the science. Geology, weapon design, warp, computer, alien biology, robotics... whatever science you have... Science is science

I'm guessing maybe Garrick Labs diversified a bit during his 'missing years'.

That's a problem with the JSA and others; they just never show major aspects of the characters'...character, like that level of knowledge or intelligence. You could have gone for 50 issues of the old JSA title without that tidbit about Jay being mentioned. And yeah, Mr. Terrific and Dr. Midnite seem to do most of the JSA's sciencing, but Jay could obviously help, and Power Girl seemed to wow even Mr. Terrific, (along with SG), instantly understanding his tech and then building it for him at superspeed. That was in a about four or five panels of a single issue, then never mentioned again.

But yeah, I don't think Barry is even the top Flash scientist. Nor does he really need to be. He's still pretty smart, knows more about science than most, and knows his own powers.