How well has Marvel handled hero mantles?

[Electricmastro]

A thread about hero mantles originally taken on by one character, but were later taken on by other characters, whether they be relatives, associates, alternate-universe counterparts, and so on, and how well you think Marvel has handled and written them, and why.

Examples of the sorts of hero mantles I’m referring to can include:

Ant-Man: Hank Pym -> Eric O’Grady

Black Widow: Claire Voyant -> Natasha Romanoff

Captain America: Steve Rogers -> Sam Wilson

Captain Marvel: Walter Lawson -> Carol Danvers

Falcon: Sam Wilson -> Joaquin Torres

Ghost Rider: Carter Slade -> Robbie Reyes

Hawkeye: Clint Barton -> Kate Bishop

The Hulk: Bruce Banner -> Amadeus Cho

The Human Torch: Jim Hammond -> Johnny Storm

Iron Man: Tony Stark -> James Rhodes

Miss America: Madeline Joyce -> America Chavez

Ms. Marvel: Carol Danvers -> Kamala Khan

Nova: Richard Rider -> Sam Alexander

Power Man: Luke Cage -> Victor Alvarez

Spider-Man: Peter Parker -> Miles Morales

Spider-Woman: Jessica Drew -> Gwen Stacy

Sun Girl: Mary Mitchell -> Selah Burke

Thor: Thor Odinson -> Jane Foster

Wasp: Janet van Dyne -> Nadia van Dyne

Wolverine: James Howlett -> Laura Kinney

[XPac]

It's hard to handle mantles well when it's usually a temporary thing.

Bruce Banner is still Hulk. Steve Rogers is still Captain America. Tony Stark is still Iron Man, etc etc. When it's just a temporary thing, it usually can't be seen as that big a deal.

Though there are a few exceptions which have stuck, like Ant-Man and Ms. Marvel.

[JudicatorPrime]

Let me start by saying that I've never been a big fan of mantle-switching, unless it involved a Golden Age character that is no longer active being updated for modern consumption, or the "mantle" is really a title, rank or station that readers have mistakenly thought was inherently intrinsic to one character. So while I would be opposed to anyone else but David Bruce Banner being the Hulk, I fully support Mjolnir, or Quantum Bands, the Power Prism, or the titles of Black Panther, Nova, Captain Universe, Starbrand, Sorcerer Supreme or Protector of the Universe changing hands from time to time.

Whenever the titles are passed on, though, two things should never happen:

1. The title should never revert back to the previous possessor without a damn good reason. Fans not liking the change isn't a good enough reason. That should have been taken into consideration by editorial and the creative team and nixed BEFORE they made the change. Some of the blowback of mantle swapping could have been avoided if they had just thought it through to its logical end. I get that it never hurts to shake things up, but seriously, stop and think about what you're doing before you do it.

2. The frequency with which a title changes should be limited. Nothing I hate more than to see 5-6 people all have claims to a mantle in a 3 - 4 year period. Not only does it mean that they are oversaturating the market and diluting the brand, but they're also not taking proper advantage of all of Marvel's wealth of characters that are in limbo gathering dust. Panel time is limited. Why fill it up with 10,000 different versions of the Spider-Man symbiote, when you could use those pages to develop intriguing stories about other characters? Marvel has a full bench and then some. They need to start using it.

That rather long preamble aside, I think Marvel handled the mantles of the Human Torch and Spider-Man (Miles Morales) quite well. I also think they struck gold when the mantle of the Phoenix involved just Jean Grey and her daughter Rachel.

They've since gone off the rails and overused the Phoenix Force, unfortunately. They're threatening to do it again when the Phoenix appears in future stories of Avengers. It's a damn shame. If anyone at Marvel is reading this, I beg you, please think about what you're doing before you do it.

[your_name_here]

Kate Bishop is a fine addition to the Hawkeye franchise. Yes, some writers use her to bring Clint down...but when used right they compliment eachother great.

[Electricmastro]

One of the most popularly received mantle transitions seems to be when Danny Ketch received the mantle of Ghost Rider, leading to him headlining his own series which lasted for 93 issues from 1990-1998. Would you guys agree that it was handled well?

[XPac]

One of the most popularly received mantle transitions seems to be when Danny Ketch received the mantle of Ghost Rider, leading to him headlining his own series which lasted for 93 issues from 1990-1998. Would you guys agree that it was handled well?

Well up till the point where they took everything away from the Danny version of Ghost Rider and gave it to Blaze.

[Somecrazyaussie]

One of the most popularly received mantle transitions seems to be when Danny Ketch received the mantle of Ghost Rider, leading to him headlining his own series which lasted for 93 issues from 1990-1998. Would you guys agree that it was handled well?

It is certainly one of the better examples. With Danny's series lasting longer than the previous volume starring Johnny. I don't mind a mantle being switched up from time to time. But there needs to be a valid story reason for it. Bucky taking over from Steve made sense narrative wise. Bucky didn't want to do it, but did so in order to prevent someone else taking it up and tarnishing it. Rhodes taking over from Tony is another.

[Somecrazyaussie]

2. The frequency with which a title changes should be limited. Nothing I hate more than to see 5-6 people all have claims to a mantle in a 3 - 4 year period. Not only does it mean that they are oversaturating the market and diluting the brand, but they're also not taking proper advantage of all of Marvel's wealth of characters that are in limbo gathering dust. Panel time is limited. Why fill it up with 10,000 different versions of the Spider-Man symbiote, when you could use those pages to develop intriguing stories about other characters? Marvel has a full bench and then some. They need to start using it.

That's my peeve. We had Bucky as Cap and then, only a couple years later, we got Sam. That was a bit ridiculous.

[H-E-D]

I'm not really sure what the criteria for "handling it well" are meant to be.

[Electricmastro]

I'm not really sure what the criteria for "handling it well" are meant to be.

No specific criteria, as this sort of thing is more opinion-based really.

[scribbleMind]

I don't think they do it well just because most of the time a mantle isn't given away or awarded, its stolen. In real life, if I was known as Scribblemind good natured vigilante, and I go missing for a month and come back to someone else calling himself Scribblemind, I'd probably sue them. A name in a situation like that is a brand, it is, and expectations come with that. If those expectations are not met by Scribblemind 2, or he's just bad at it, that is now associated with the name. People might lose faith in or blame me. People might lose faith in vigilantism in general assuming this is a marvel-esque world where vigilantism isn't unusual. It would make me not want to use the name anymore, and if I changed it that would result in all sorts of confusion from my supporters. They'll split my actions into the Scribblemind era and the post-Scribblemind era. "He was better back when he was Scribblemind." No sir, I just don't like it.

[ETMike1988]

That's my peeve. We had Bucky as Cap and then, only a couple years later, we got Sam. That was a bit ridiculous.

With introducing 3 female Captain Americas from different universes / futures + hydra Captain America + currently a new male Captain America in the Old Man Logan universe. And maybe I forgot about other recently debuted Captain Anericas from other universes / futures.

Why not introducing a Captain America Corps... oh wait the sec..

[Digifiend]

That's my peeve. We had Bucky as Cap and then, only a couple years later, we got Sam. That was a bit ridiculous.

Bucky was Cap for what, five years? Then Steve was back for three, and then we got three years of Sam. Yeah, that is a bit odd, in fact it means two thirds of that decade - 2006-2016 - had someone other than Steve as Cap. In Sam's last year of course, there was also that Hydra version of Steve.

It got more ridiculous afterwards though. Sam was clearly not originally intended to revert back to Falcon so soon, as he'd only recently took on a new Falcon as a sidekick, and his second sidekick introduced in Secret Empire was a new Patriot, whose motif would've worked better as a sidekick to Captain America rather than Falcon (Marvel Rising made him Steve's sidekick instead). The new Falcon considered changing his name, but when the Falcon book was cancelled, meaning Joaquin was now only appearing in Champions, that plot point was dropped.

[Ying Ko]

Never liked legacy characters. There are only very few instances when it was really well done and even necessary. Bucky Barnes as Captain America comes to mind. (Also Dick Grayson as Batman over at DC.)

[Gaastra]

One of the most popularly received mantle transitions seems to be when Danny Ketch received the mantle of Ghost Rider, leading to him headlining his own series which lasted for 93 issues from 1990-1998. Would you guys agree that it was handled well?

Nope. They still reset it back to blaze. Plus isn't the west ghost rider first? That makes blaze a mantle hero! He was not the first.

Mantle heroes that stayed---


Miss America
Human torch
Vision
Dr doom (bad guys but still not the first)
Hulk
Thing
Angel
Black widow
Magneto
Ghost rider


All had others with the names before them. Also wasn't there a Spider-Man like female spider hero back in ww2? Kind of surprised they have not tied her to Spider-Man or spider-woman yet.