How well has Marvel handled hero mantles?

[Digifiend]

^Closest I can think of is Black Widow, Claire Voyant. But it looks like you already knew about her.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Bucky was Cap for what, five years? Then Steve was back for three, and then we got three years of Sam. Yeah, that is a bit odd, in fact it means two thirds of that decade - 2006-2016 - had someone other than Steve as Cap. In Sam's last year of course, there was also that Hydra version of Steve.

It got more ridiculous afterwards though. Sam was clearly not originally intended to revert back to Falcon so soon, as he'd only recently took on a new Falcon as a sidekick, and his second sidekick introduced in Secret Empire was a new Patriot, whose motif would've worked better as a sidekick to Captain America rather than Falcon (Marvel Rising made him Steve's sidekick instead). The new Falcon considered changing his name, but when the Falcon book was cancelled, meaning Joaquin was now only appearing in Champions, that plot point was dropped.

I agree. But both were abruptly cut short. Bucky's run as Cap ended as a result of The First Avenger. Brubaker mentioned it a few years back that he intended to have Bucky as Cap a bit longer, but was informed that Steve had to return to coincide with the movie. So he accelerated his plans to make it happen.

[CrimsonEchidna]

I still do think it was a coward move on Marvel's part to have Sam Wilson step down as Captain America, especially after how Secret Empire ended.

[JudicatorPrime]

That's my peeve. We had Bucky as Cap and then, only a couple years later, we got Sam. That was a bit ridiculous.

I hear you. I was not in favor of Sam becoming Captain America. That had the effect of driving home the perception that the Falcon was, indeed, a sidekick; not his own man, not his own mantle. (Has Steve ever donned the Falcon uniform and mantle for any length of time? Of course not.) If Sam is an equal partner, then the writers should have embraced the opportunity to build up the Falcon's Q ratings with readers. Bring in Bucky or USAgent to partner with Sam, but make no mistake, Sam would be the alpha of alphas here as the man whose ideals paralleled Steve's. Just my $0.02.

[JudicatorPrime]

I don't think they do it well just because most of the time a mantle isn't given away or awarded, its stolen. In real life, if I was known as Scribblemind good natured vigilante, and I go missing for a month and come back to someone else calling himself Scribblemind, I'd probably sue them. A name in a situation like that is a brand, it is, and expectations come with that. If those expectations are not met by Scribblemind 2, or he's just bad at it, that is now associated with the name. People might lose faith in or blame me. People might lose faith in vigilantism in general assuming this is a marvel-esque world where vigilantism isn't unusual. It would make me not want to use the name anymore, and if I changed it that would result in all sorts of confusion from my supporters. They'll split my actions into the Scribblemind era and the post-Scribblemind era. "He was better back when he was Scribblemind." No sir, I just don't like it.

In court you'd have to show that you own the name and that someone else using your name hurts you, especially in a business sense. Otherwise, every girl named Mary and every guy named Bob would be flat broke from all of the law suits.

I've often said that Monica Rambeau should have copyrighted the moniker Captain Marvel. After all, she was the first human and US citizen to use that name and she held it for a period far longer than anyone since the original. It could be further argued that Captain Mar-Vell was the correct name and substantively different than Captain Marvel. So even if Mar-Vell's family came along seeking an injunction, they would have had a hard time proving their right to the exact letter for letter nomenclature of Captain Marvel. This is how a person can open up a restaurant called Big Mack's without getting successfully sued by the burger giant and forced to change its name.

[Frontier]

Kate Bishop is a fine addition to the Hawkeye franchise. Yes, some writers use her to bring Clint down...but when used right they compliment eachother great.

My problem is it usually feels like more the former then the latter situation.

I agree. But both were abruptly cut short. Bucky's run as Cap ended as a result of The First Avenger. Brubaker mentioned it a few years back that he intended to have Bucky as Cap a bit longer, but was informed that Steve had to return to coincide with the movie. So he accelerated his plans to make it happen.

This is also why the Superior Spider-Man ended when it did, they wanted Peter back by ASM2.

Steve Rogers was also Captain America again by Civil War, I think, although the twist was it was HydraCap.

Jane didn't revert back by the time of Ragnarok though.

I still do think it was a coward move on Marvel's part to have Sam Wilson step down as Captain America, especially after how Secret Empire ended.

No more cowardly then Marvel committing to all these new legacy heroes and trying to emphasize that they were for real only to do what everyone suspected and revert back to the originals eventually. Even the talk of them existing together with the same codename just didn't happen.

I respected Marvel's intentions with ANAD Marvel, if not their methods, but in some ways they shot themselves in the foot with it. Well, I guess they did their job of giving the MCU stuff to mine to accommodate the actors.

[capandkirby]

My personal beef with how the Captain America mantle has been handled is that Steve has to suffer/be taken off the board/maimed (re:aged up) for it to happen. Despite the fact that Brubaker is a tremendous writer and ultimately I really enjoyed his run, it took me years to actually finish it. I raged quit comics for a bit when Steve died and didn’t come back again till he was brought back. In fact, as harsh as this may sound, I still resent Bucky a little bit to this day because his run as Cap meant Steve had to die (Fallen Son is the only comic I’ve ever cried over). I mean I like Bucky but the resentment is still there. Sam I had a pre-existing parasocial relationship with, meaning I started reading the Cap books with Gruenwald, and Sam was just so fantastic right off the bat, so I had already loved the character for decades when he inherited the mantle, so it was a little easier to take, made moreso by the fact that he and Steve loved each other and that helped (re: Steve asking Sam to replace him. So that Sam was Steve’s decision, and that was shown on-panel, helped). But even then, even loving Sam as much as I do, it still bothered me that Steve was aged up the way he was for that story to happen. I would much rather there be two Captain Americas than to watch Steve die/or be aged out of superhero-ing/incapacitated again. As a consumer, I personally prefer mantles being handled like they were with Peter and Miles or Carol and Kamala, wherein, pardon the pun, the relationships are symbiotic and both can thrive and even be a support system for one another without one of them having to suffer for it.

Basically it comes down to this: after decades of reading comics, I have a parasocial relationship with Steve Rogers, much the way Holmes fans have an affinity for Holmes, or Bourne fans have an affinity for Jason. When you’re a fan of a series, and have developed an empathy to the lead character through years/decades of reading their adventures, it’s disheartening and unpleasant to see them meet an untimely end no matter how awesome their replacement might be. And that taints things.

Same reason no wanted wanted to watch the X-files after Mulder was written out. Or watch The Office that final season. It also explains why everyone hated Star Trek Generations despite the overwhelming popularity of the TNG cast. Had Kirk not died in that film it probably would have been way better received. The viewers had parasocial ties to the previous show runners. You mess with that, or don’t handle it respectfully, and you alienate consumers.

[Digifiend]

Jane didn't revert back by the time of Ragnarok though.

Yeah, they did do that Unworthy Thor mini though, in which he got a movie synergy short haircut.

[Will Evans]

I’m surprised Daredevil and Moon Knight never had their mantles passed albeit temporarily. (Aside from Iron Fist dressed as Daredevil while Matt was in prison).

I thought that’s where Blindspot was leading to.


Also I thought Khonshu was going to pick a temporary champion.



I wouldn’t mind seeing Clea (who technically still has her married surname) to became a new Dr Strange.

[Frontier]

I’m surprised Daredevil and Moon Knight never had their mantles passed albeit temporarily. (Aside from Iron Fist dressed as Daredevil while Matt was in prison).

I thought that’s where Blindspot was leading to.


Also I thought Khonshu was going to pick a temporary champion.



I wouldn’t mind seeing Clea (who technically still has her married surname) to became a new Dr Strange.

Moon Knight wasn't big enough to where I could've seen them bothering with him.

I'm surprised they didn't try replacing Strange again but I think it came around the time they were starting give him a hard movie push so it wouldn't have happened.

[skyvolt2000]

I agree. But both were abruptly cut short. Bucky's run as Cap ended as a result of The First Avenger. Brubaker mentioned it a few years back that he intended to have Bucky as Cap a bit longer, but was informed that Steve had to return to coincide with the movie. So he accelerated his plans to make it happen.

Generally when a Marvel movie was coming out-whoever it was had to match who was in the movie. This was something they always did even with Fox having movie rights.

That stopped with Jane Foster as Thor-mainly because how well her book was doing versus Odison's run.

Then came Fox's Fantastic Four (based more on Ultimate version) with MBJ as Johnny.

They have veered from it as of late if you look at Shuri, Monica in Cap Marvel & Domino in Deadpool 2.

Nick Fury is sort of a gray area since both versions were running around in Marvel when the films started.

[Electricmastro]

Nope. They still reset it back to blaze. Plus isn't the west ghost rider first? That makes blaze a mantle hero! He was not the first.

Mantle heroes that stayed---


Miss America
Human torch
Vision
Dr doom (bad guys but still not the first)
Hulk
Thing
Angel
Black widow
Magneto
Ghost rider


All had others with the names before them. Also wasn't there a Spider-Man like female spider hero back in ww2? Kind of surprised they have not tied her to Spider-Man or spider-woman yet.

Yeah, with Dynamic’s Spider Woman and Fox’s Spider Queen from back in the day.

[JudicatorPrime]

Also I thought Khonshu was going to pick a temporary champion.

Didn't Khonshu have other champions in the past? I thought I recall reading that somewhere. If so, I guess we'd need to determine if "Moon Knight" is the title Khonshu bequeaths to his champions, or if the name is unique to the many faces of Marc Spector. I'd be fine with either interpretation. Not sure how Moon Knight faithful fans would feel about that, though.

[JudicatorPrime]

I'll never know how Spider Queen's costume got by the censors at that time considering how ultra conservative the Authority was. And to think that these days some critics of Spider-Woman's costume feel that her garb, which covers her from head to toe, is inappropriate.

[Electricmastro]

I'll never know how Spider Queen's costume got by the censors at that time considering how ultra conservative the Authority was. And to think that these days some critics of Spider-Woman's costume feel that her garb, which covers her from head to toe, is inappropriate.

Spider Queen debuted in 1941, many years before the Comics Code of Authority was put in place and was calling out the good girl art, among other aspects of comics. I suppose that as long as that’s how Shannon Kane felt like dressing, whether out of wanting something less “restrictive” or something she felt was stylish, and is shown as a competent fighter, then I suppose it’s alright.

That said though, out of all the superheroines drawn in the 40s, Jim Mooney was probably the one who went the furthest in exposing the most skin, with his character of Wildfire.