How much do you like MJ?

[Ozymandias]

Before and after Gwen died, Peter Parker's stories were action stories mixed with drama, comedy, and romance. Gwen's death did not in any significant way change the nature of the series and stories that could be told.

More like "the stories that were told". I could've told a completely different one, but then again, she wasn't an accessory to me. Conway on the other hand, though very little of her, so he tried to erase her as quickly as possible and to do that, she couldn't have a greater impact dead than she did while participating in the story. Not that it worked, hence the current conversation, as so many others over the past five decades.

The hard truth is that you can't kill off too many characters without changing the tone of the stories. Just as you can't bring in too many love interests, just as you can't keep bringing characters from the dead. The more you do that, the more emotional investment you drain from the stories. So in that sense, in terms of an ongoing serial story as opposed to selling merch, it cannot be truly said that long running supporting characters can be safely discounted and removed. It's important for a serial story to maintain a tone and style, and the way to do that is to keep hold of and maintain long-running supporting characters. More than the protagonist, it's them who maintian and uphold the emotional investment of the story. You can sell Superman and Batman toys without anyone knowing they are Clark and Bruce, but you can't tell the story of Clark and Bruce without the Kents of Smallvile, the Staff of Daily Planet, without Alfred the Butler, James Gordon, and a Robin of some kind.

In the case of Spider-Man, he lives in a fairly sanitized corner of the Marvel Universe as it is. Compare the tone of Spider-Man with Daredevil. Spider-Man has only one dead girlfriend with Gwen, but Daredevil has several, Wolverine even moreso. The criminal element in his stories don't touch on rape, molestation, human trafficking, and other kinds of stuff. The more death, violence, and tragedy you pile on, it becomes impossible to have Spider-Man be Mr. Quippy or whine about "Typical Parker Luck" without coming off as a sociopath when faced with the far greater suffering faced by people around him. You saw this in Mackie's run with Mj's "death/separation" thing. It made the titles really depressing to read and drove down sales. At the end of the day, Spider-Man is not the character who buries loved ones by the dozens (that's Daredevil, Batman), whose daily life is preoccupied more with the lives of people he fights than the ones he loves (Batman, The Punisher). So you can't really kill off major characters like Jameson or Mary Jane, and still pretend the character is the same as he was before.

I mean any other given character in her instead, not a significant portion of the cast or its entirety.

As a character, Gwen was totally peripheral to Peter's world. She wasn't close to Aunt May, in fact she bullied her. She didn't like Spider-Man and blamed him for her father's death, so that relationship had no future.

For six years, she was the girlfriend, and that was a big deal in the "House of Ideas". Relationships weren't casual, they mattered. If anything, too much.

Bullied? You mean ASM #109?

The character's opinion on Spider-Man was based on false information, spread mainly by Peter. At least she never shot at him, unlike his ever loving Aunt.

[...] have the original intended Lois Lane (MJ) waiting in the wings to play off a subplot that Ditko had set-up in his title, when she was the one Aunt May believed was right for Peter. So in a real sense Gwen's death was very much in the "illusion of change". It simply reset Spider-Man's status-quo to back where it was when Ditko left the titles

Ditko had that in mind? How did you arrive to that conclusion?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

More like "the stories that were told". I could've told a completely different one, but then again, she wasn't an accessory to me. Conway on the other hand, though very little of her, so he tried to erase her as quickly as possible and to do that, she couldn't have a greater impact dead than she did while participating in the story.

Conway said that when he came to write ASM he initially just followed Stan Lee's template (which is true, see his first 10 issues or so on the title, which aren't very good) and that the plan to kill a major character was hatched by Romita Sr. who felt the books were growing stale and needed a shake up. Conway merely pointed out why Gwen worked best. He said that if there was no plot to kill a character, Conway would have found a way to break up Peter and Gwen.

If that happened, Gwen would be alive and in the background there for use for other writers. But at the same time, Gwen Stacy would not be remembered or come to have the significance she did after she died. She would have the status of "Girl after Betty before MJ" and that's all.

I mean any other given character in her instead, not a significant portion of the cast or its entirety.

Well if people say, as some are saying here that Peter Parker is the only important character in these stories, basically arguing that the supporting cast and others are expendable, then it's important to bring to light the actual nature of the stories which so many are ignorant about.

For six years, she was the girlfriend, and that was a big deal in the "House of Ideas". Relationships weren't casual, they mattered. If anything, too much.

Actually not so much in Stan Lee's era. Marvel in general wasn't into romance and Lee in general was bad at writing relationships (look at Reed/Sue in the Golden Age, Thor/Jane in that same time). In the case of Peter and Gwen, their romance and writing as relationship was quite bad. Stan never wrote Peter/Gwen on dates, or them alone together very much. We never got to see the slow maturing of feelings and passion that you saw in how Conway wrote Peter/MJ.

Bullied? You mean ASM #109?

Yeah. Because of Gwen shouting at May like that, she ran away without telling Peter for the next few issues (leading to her crossing paths with Doctor Octopus for what is among the silliest subplots in the entire series).

The character's opinion on Spider-Man was based on false information, spread mainly by Peter. At least she never shot at him, unlike his ever loving Aunt.

Gwen joined the campaign of a far-right politician who more or less promised her that he would kill Spider-Man.

Ditko had that in mind? How did you arrive to that conclusion?

Ditko plotted out the stories in the Lee-Ditko run as per the Marvel Method. He actually got and negotiated plotting credit from ASM#25 to the end of his run. ASM#25 features the Spider-Slayer, and it also has Mary Jane's first "Appearance" (with her face obscured by lampshade) and Ditko set up that in that issue that MJ was more beautiful than Liz and Betty, and that Aunt May believed she was right for Peter. Ditko's final issue, (#38) written when he knew it was his last, and so he spent his time setting up the subplots for the next team to provide payoffs for also had MJ in his final panels. Ditko himself chose to highlight and emphasize MJ as a significant figure when he had the most control over the stories. The minute readers got a sense of who MJ could be, in essence "the one", the relationship with Betty and also the flirtation with Liz Allan was doomed. And Ditko devoted the rest of his run in sinking the Peter-Betty romance and also writes Liz Allan out of the books (where she was gone for nearly 100 issues returning only in Conway's run). All the while readers could be primed knowing someone better was waiting around the corner so the end of the Peter-Betty romance didn't feel too sad

[The tall man]

If you don't think Peter not telling a girlfriend that she's in danger by being with him, taking that choice out of her hands, isn't lying, I don't know what you define as lying.

Peter planned to marry Gwen and not tell her that he was Spider-Man. Peter actually proposed to MJ and didn't tell her that he was Spider-Man. Carlie broke up with him because she realized he was Spider-Man and wouldn't tell her the truth.

This matters.

You can make an argument that Peter has trouble letting people in, that he has trouble trusting people, that he is afraid of being hurt so he preemptively ruins himself, that he is flawed. That's an argument you can make. Saying "he's not really lying to them" is not that argument. Because he is.

Just because you are dating someone it doesn't mean they have the right to know every single personal thing about you, you are entitled to keep some aspects of your life private. Does every woman that Peter goes out with have to know he's Spider-man especially if there is no guarantee of a lasting relationship, should he demand to know every single thing about them? He is dating someone and he reveals his identity then down the road there is a bad breakup, what then? There is someone out there who knows his secret and probably has ill feelings towards him, why should he put himself in that position, why should he take that risk?. There is nothing to be gained by revealing his identity unless he is absolutely sure that this is a lasting relationship. Now where I will agree with you is if marriage is a serious possibility, in that case then yes he should reveal his secret if he intends to ask someone to spend their life with him. Anything short of that then no way. And since his enemies doesn't know his identity there is no threat to any potential girlfriend.

[SpideyCeo]

MJ had many affairs behind spideys back did she not?

[Lee]

This applies to real people, not fictional people who only live on paper.

I think the world has writers in it who are capable of writing many different kinds of relationships.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And since his enemies doesn't know his identity there is no threat to any potential girlfriend.

1) Peter does in fact have enemies who know his identity -- Norman Osborn, Carnage, Venom in a bad mood, Jackal.

2) When he dated Gwen, Norman Osborn who he knew was Green Goblin and who also knew Peter's identity, was part of his active supporting cast. By not telling Gwen and Harry that a very dangerous person had access to their personal lives and is only on a leash because of drug-induced amnesia, he endangered everyone he knew. To the extent that this was excusable, it stopped being the case after Norman relapsed in the Drug Trilogy. Before at least Peter had no reason to think Norman would relapse. But in the 24 issues between the Drug Trilogy and Gwen's death, Peter despite having all the time and all the chances, never told her.

Peter lying to Gwen was what got her killed in the end. Not the ridiculous webbing thing which Conway, ill-advisedly, snuck in to overwrite and sabotage his own story, it was Peter refusing to turn Norman in that did it.

[Kevinroc]

Just because you are dating someone it doesn't mean they have the right to know every single personal thing about you, you are entitled to keep some aspects of your life private. Does every woman that Peter goes out with have to know he's Spider-man especially if there is no guarantee of a lasting relationship, should he demand to know every single thing about them? He is dating someone and he reveals his identity then down the road there is a bad breakup, what then? There is someone out there who knows his secret and probably has ill feelings towards him, why should he put himself in that position, why should he take that risk?. There is nothing to be gained by revealing his identity unless he is absolutely sure that this is a lasting relationship. Now where I will agree with you is if marriage is a serious possibility, in that case then yes he should reveal his secret if he intends to ask someone to spend their life with him. Anything short of that then no way. And since his enemies doesn't know his identity there is no threat to any potential girlfriend.

There's a reason why recent games and movies have moved away from this part of Spider-Man (and super heroes have moved away from secret identities as a whole).

I think the world has writers in it who are capable of writing many different kinds of relationships.

This doesn't change the highly repetitive nature of these kinds of relationships. They feel very shallow because they are not built to last.

[NC_Yankee]

1) Peter does in fact have enemies who know his identity -- Norman Osborn, Carnage, Venom in a bad mood, Jackal.

2) When he dated Gwen, Norman Osborn who he knew was Green Goblin and who also knew Peter's identity, was part of his active supporting cast. By not telling Gwen and Harry that a very dangerous person had access to their personal lives and is only on a leash because of drug-induced amnesia, he endangered everyone he knew. To the extent that this was excusable, it stopped being the case after Norman relapsed in the Drug Trilogy. Before at least Peter had no reason to think Norman would relapse. But in the 24 issues between the Drug Trilogy and Gwen's death, Peter despite having all the time and all the chances, never told her.

Peter lying to Gwen was what got her killed in the end. Not the ridiculous webbing thing which Conway, ill-advisedly, snuck in to overwrite and sabotage his own story, it was Peter refusing to turn Norman in that did it.

I really disagree with that. 1: You let Osborn off the hook. Like the rapist blaming the victim. 2: How much did Gwen despise Spider-Man because of the death of her father? A lot. You could have said goodbye to Gwen if that happened. 3: Peter tries to keep a balance between Peter Parker and Spider-Man, most other heroes are superheroes 24/7, that is why he lies ( even to Aunt May). 4: There is only one person who can handle both the Spider and the Man and that is MJ. Gwen could not, Felicia could not, Betty could not and especially Carly could not. That is perhaps ( although not the only reason) why MJ is Pete’s soulmate

[Lee]

Actually not so much in Stan Lee's era. Marvel in general wasn't into romance and Lee in general was bad at writing relationships (look at Reed/Sue in the Golden Age, Thor/Jane in that same time).

Marvel was into romance during Stan Lee's era. They published several romance comics in Stan Lee's era. Stan wrote and/or edited many of the romance comics that Marvel published. Stan worked romance into every super-hero stories he launched. Debate the quality all you want, but it was there.

This doesn't change the highly repetitive nature of these kinds of relationships. They feel very shallow because they are not built to last.

I think there are writers in the world who are perfectly capable of introducing fresh and exciting new romances into Spider-Man comics. Just as I think there are writers in the world who are perfectly capable of introducing fresh and exciting new villains into Spider-Man comics.

[Kevinroc]

I think there are writers in the world who are perfectly capable of introducing fresh and exciting new romances into Spider-Man comics. Just as I think there are writers in the world who are perfectly capable of introducing fresh and exciting new villains into Spider-Man comics.

I don't think people really have any interest in that. They have someone to fill that role. And if they need her to go away for awhile and have Peter struggle to get a date or not make it to a date because Spider-Man was needed, they'll do that. But they'll still end up bringing MJ back.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Marvel was into romance during Stan Lee's era.

"Stan Lee's era" is a broad and sweeping category. What people understand by that is the Marvel 616 superhero era which began with the launch of the Fantastic Four.

Before that there was the Timely/Atlas era, where Lee still worked but where he hadn't yet come into his own. The romance comics you locate properly belongs to this period, with anything continuing past it being a holdover and remnant from an earlier period that was gradually phased out.

They published several romance comics...

Because the Romance Comics genre, launched by Jack Kirby and Joe Simon in the late 40s was a big deal and Timely/Atlas followed trends in other comics. When EC Comics was at its height, Timely/Atlas followed that trend too. It was not in any sense representative of what the company was known for, nor was it any sense representative of Stan Lee as writer.

Stan worked romance into every super-hero stories he launched.

Because again romance is a common element in superhero genre stories. There's a difference between having a token romance, and actually being able to write relationships in a compelling way.

[Frontier]

I don't think people really have any interest in that. They have someone to fill that role. And if they need her to go away for awhile and have Peter struggle to get a date or not make it to a date because Spider-Man was needed, they'll do that. But they'll still end up bringing MJ back.

I mean, they had a whole Brain Trust during BND that couldn't really create a memorable and viable new love interest (and I don't count Carlie).

[Ozymandias]

Conway said that when he came to write ASM he initially just followed Stan Lee's template (which is true, see his first 10 issues or so on the title, which aren't very good) and that the plan to kill a major character was hatched by Romita Sr. who felt the books were growing stale and needed a shake up. Conway merely pointed out why Gwen worked best. He said that if there was no plot to kill a character, Conway would have found a way to break up Peter and Gwen.

If that happened, Gwen would be alive and in the background there for use for other writers. But at the same time, Gwen Stacy would not be remembered or come to have the significance she did after she died. She would have the status of "Girl after Betty before MJ" and that's all.

You're taken, as a given, several things that aren't that apparent to me. At least one of which is patently not so. For starters, no one knows that Conway wouldn't have presented the idea himself, at some point, and given how things turned out to be, it's not difficult to imagine he wouldn't have met tough opposition. We also don't know that other writers wouldn't have used the character. We do know Wolfman wrote MJ of and O'Neil was OK with that. So not nearly everyone thought she was a perfect match. I'm also confident Stern would've brought Gwen back, just as he did with MJ, if nothing else because she had history with Peter.

Actually not so much in Stan Lee's era. Marvel in general wasn't into romance and Lee in general was bad at writing relationships (look at Reed/Sue in the Golden Age, Thor/Jane in that same time). In the case of Peter and Gwen, their romance and writing as relationship was quite bad. Stan never wrote Peter/Gwen on dates, or them alone together very much. We never got to see the slow maturing of feelings and passion that you saw in how Conway wrote Peter/MJ.

I'm not saying he was good at it, just that the relationships were a big deal, as in not something casual.

Yeah. Because of Gwen shouting at May like that, she ran away without telling Peter for the next few issues (leading to her crossing paths with Doctor Octopus for what is among the silliest subplots in the entire series).

Aunt desperately needed a talking down, the only thing I didn't like from that sequence, was Gwen backing down almost immediately.

Gwen joined the campaign of a far-right politician who more or less promised her that he would kill Spider-Man.

Panel please.

Ditko plotted out the stories in the Lee-Ditko run as per the Marvel Method. He actually got and negotiated plotting credit from ASM#25 to the end of his run. ASM#25 features the Spider-Slayer, and it also has Mary Jane's first "Appearance" (with her face obscured by lampshade) and Ditko set up that in that issue that MJ was more beautiful than Liz and Betty, and that Aunt May believed she was right for Peter. Ditko's final issue, (#38) written when he knew it was his last, and so he spent his time setting up the subplots for the next team to provide payoffs for also had MJ in his final panels. Ditko himself chose to highlight and emphasize MJ as a significant figure when he had the most control over the stories. The minute readers got a sense of who MJ could be, in essence "the one", the relationship with Betty and also the flirtation with Liz Allan was doomed. And Ditko devoted the rest of his run in sinking the Peter-Betty romance and also writes Liz Allan out of the books (where she was gone for nearly 100 issues returning only in Conway's run). All the while readers could be primed knowing someone better was waiting around the corner so the end of the Peter-Betty romance didn't feel too sad

We obviously read it differently. To me, it's clear the break-up with Betty was in anticipation of Gwen's appearance the following issue. Liz had simply outlived her purpose.

[Kevinroc]

I mean, they had a whole Brain Trust during BND that couldn't really create a memorable and viable new love interest (and I don't count Carlie).

Spider-Man's been around for almost 60 years at this point. It's hard to create any character in his orbit. Serialized fiction is a very continuity-driven medium. So characters created to be disposable just don't tend to hold any interest for a vast majority of fans.

[Huntsman Spider]

MJ had many affairs behind spideys back did she not?

No, she didn't. There were guys who tried to tempt her away from Peter, but she never cheated on him. Not once. Where did you even get that from?