How much do you like MJ?

[Lee]

"Stan Lee's era" is a broad and sweeping category. What people understand by that is the Marvel 616 superhero era which began with the launch of the Fantastic Four.

Before that there was the Timely/Atlas era, where Lee still worked but where he hadn't yet come into his own. The romance comics you locate properly belongs to this period, with anything continuing past it being a holdover and remnant from an earlier period that was gradually phased out.

Because the Romance Comics genre, launched by Jack Kirby and Joe Simon in the late 40s was a big deal and Timely/Atlas followed trends in other comics. When EC Comics was at its height, Timely/Atlas followed that trend too. It was not in any sense representative of what the company was known for, nor was it any sense representative of Stan Lee as writer.

Because again romance is a common element in superhero genre stories. There's a difference between having a token romance, and actually being able to write relationships in a compelling way.

As I said, debate the quality all you want. The statement that Marvel wasn't into romance was false.

I don't think people really have any interest in that. They have someone to fill that role. And if they need her to go away for awhile and have Peter struggle to get a date or not make it to a date because Spider-Man was needed, they'll do that. But they'll still end up bringing MJ back.

I'm a person. I'm interested in it. I think it could be fun. You're free to have a different opinion. I'm sure Mary Jane, like any popular character, will always come back. If they keep creating new characters, maybe some of them will become popular too.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, they had a whole Brain Trust during BND that couldn't really create a memorable and viable new love interest (and I don't count Carlie).

The Brain Trust or Webheads weren't invested in creating a "new love interest". On the part of the writers certainly not. Most of them signed on to write Spider-Man without being told about OMD (Marc Guggenheim certainly and his reaction on first hearing that was more or less to do a mental gulp). Editorially, they wanted to put as much distance from Mary Jane and the marriage and the Mephisto deal as possible because all of them were in the firing line and it was the major Mammoth Elephant in the room. Dan Slott said that editors asked him to continue using Carlie into Big Time to maintain some connection to the BND era. And you can see with Slott that after Superior, Carlie drops out of his title completely not returning until Spencer's run and he also used his first major event Spider-Island to sell her and Peter breaking up as a major win for the fans. The character created in BND with the longest shelf-life was Norah Winters (created by Joe Kelly and Chris Bachalo) and she was never intended as a love interest (mostly because she does have similarities to MJ in some respects). Slott in general wasn't really interested in romance and was quite bad at writing it, and female characters as a whole if we are being honest. That's why the entire Post-OMD era was founded on a very nihilistic foundation because collectively it was astro-turfed in rather than something which had actual conviction and support among writers. None of them really believed there was another girl other than MJ, and since they didn't believe in it, you generally didn't see that show on the page.

For starters, no one knows that Conway wouldn't have presented the idea himself, at some point, and given how things turned out to be, it's not difficult to imagine he wouldn't have met tough opposition.

Conway was young (18), just starting in Marvel and was initially just happy to share the room with Stan and Romita Sr. It wasn't until Romita Sr. engaged him that Conway felt comfortable asserting his own ideas into the title. Remember that making a pitch to kill a character needed approval from the seniors at Marvel at the time (line-editors as we know it didn't exist yet until Shooter the Great arrived, but at the time John Romita Sr. was basically Spider-Man's editor, making the decisions that Nick Lowe does today). It wasn't something writers could just pitch on their own.

We also don't know that other writers wouldn't have used the character.

Agreed, but if Gwen survived, she wouldn't have the patina she does as "the girl who died for the sins of the Silver Age". You have to concieve of Gwen as substantially different from the one that existed when you first heard of her coming into Spider-Man more recently as a fan and reader. How writers would have used her would have been interesting. Maybe some will have her lapse into the Ditko-era characterization (which has now been completely overwritten), or have her reimagined as a villain.

Karen Page is a good example, she was written out of Daredevil after being promoted and built by Lee as Matt's main love interest. Also a Silver Age girlfriend. And then Frank Miller brought her out of obscurity for Daredevil Born Again creating basically the greatest love story (in a single story arc) and romance in Marvel comics. Now the nature of Daredevil isn't the same as Spider-Man, so obviously I don't expect a writer to have Gwen go as far as Miller went with Karen (even if it was to ultimately raise and elevate her as Matt's greatest love in line with Lee's original intent) but that's one possibility of what could happen if Gwen were written out and another writer had a go with her. It also didn't help Karen, because first Ann Nocenti, who followed Miller, wrote her out of the books, and then Quesada ordered Kevin Smith to kill her in Guardian Devil to give that paltry undeserving story a connection to a masterpiece it neither earned nor deserved. But ultimately, Karen Page has the last laugh thanks to being at the center of the Netflix show, and the fact that as many good runs as there are, nobody has surpassed the highs of Born Again.

I'm not saying he was good at it, just that the relationships were a big deal, as in not something casual.

Relationships weren't as much in focus as they came to be with Conway and Claremont.

Panel please.

How about chapter and verse: ASM #91-92.

We obviously read it differently. To me, it's clear the break-up with Betty was in anticipation of Gwen's appearance the following issue. Liz had simply outlived her purpose.

With Betty, Ditko disliked the character and campaigned to kill her off. Ditko actually talked to Lee and he suggested having Betty die in a common domestic accident (tripping and falling down the stairs) because a) Ditko disliked her, b) He thought it was subversive because such common domestic accident related deaths hardly happen to characters in superhero stories. Ultimately Lee talked him out of it (and amazingly Ditko agreed that Stan was right in this case). Lee pointed out that Peter just lost Uncle Ben and having him lose another character so early would just add too much baggage to the story. Which indicates at least that Lee knew what kind of story he was telling and what the limits are in terms of clearing out supporting cast. As for Gwen, there's no setup there at all in his run. Gwen is a mean bully to Peter and more or less "Liz Allan but in college".

[Lee]

With Betty, Ditko disliked the character

Do you have a source for this?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Do you have a source for this?

Blake Bell's "Strange and Stranger: The World of Steve Ditko"

[Lee]

Blake Bell's "Strange and Stranger: The World of Steve Ditko"

I've read it. I have it in front of me right now. I can't see anything about Ditko disliking the character.

[Kevinroc]

I'm a person. I'm interested in it. I think it could be fun. You're free to have a different opinion. I'm sure Mary Jane, like any popular character, will always come back. If they keep creating new characters, maybe some of them will become popular too.

I think what we saw from the beginning of Brand New Day to Nick Spencer's run is a good indicator of what's going to happen over and over.

[Lee]

I think what we saw from the beginning of Brand New Day to Nick Spencer's run is a good indicator of what's going to happen over and over.

That's fine. I knew Eddie Brock would probably become Venom again, but I still had a good time reading about Agent Venom. A lot of it is cyclical.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

A lot of it is cyclical.

No it isn't. Being on a treadmill isn't cyclical.

DC is actually cyclical. Where each new universe and reboot forms a complete circle. So the Silver Age began with "Flash of Two Worlds" and ended with COIE. That circle was in and of itself complete, paving the way for a new cycle that came afterwards.

Marvel Comics on the other hand is supposed to be linear, a zig-zag squiggly line rather than a straight one, but it's forward moving. It's best comics, and best stories came when it advanced.

This "illusion of change" claptrap, as some here seem to understand it, is a nonsense interpretation, that was never consistently practised by Marvel.

[Ozymandias]

Conway was young (18), just starting in Marvel and was initially just happy to share the room with Stan and Romita Sr. It wasn't until Romita Sr. engaged him that Conway felt comfortable asserting his own ideas into the title. Remember that making a pitch to kill a character needed approval from the seniors at Marvel at the time (line-editors as we know it didn't exist yet until Shooter the Great arrived, but at the time John Romita Sr. was basically Spider-Man's editor, making the decisions that Nick Lowe does today). It wasn't something writers could just pitch on their own.

And yet, When Romita pitched the idea of killing Aunt May, it was 20 year old Conway who managed to shift that to "let's kill Gwen".

Agreed, but if Gwen survived, she wouldn't have the patina she does as "the girl who died for the sins of the Silver Age". You have to concieve of Gwen as substantially different from the one that existed when you first heard of her coming into Spider-Man more recently as a fan and reader. How writers would have used her would have been interesting. Maybe some will have her lapse into the Ditko-era characterization (which has now been completely overwritten), or have her reimagined as a villain.

Even Conway, who was as opposed to the character as they come, wrote her reasonably well. I can imagine Wein, Wolfman and O'Neil making progress, rather than plunge her into regression. I certainly would've loved to see Stern writing Gwen.

Relationships weren't as much in focus as they came to be with Conway and Claremont.

They were a big deal, and continued to be for the better part of the 70's. Any relationship had to keep marriage in sight. Even MJ was forced to turn down a clumsy proposal.

How about chapter and verse: ASM #91-92.

I read them 6 years ago. I don't remember something like that, I'll keep it in mind for the next time I cycle back to them.

As for Gwen, there's no setup there at all in his run. Gwen is a mean bully to Peter and more or less "Liz Allan but in college".

Oh, but there was. It started with Peter not even noticing her (because of Aunt May's health problems) in #31. Then he did, but thought it was a lost case, given how bad of a first impression he had made around campus in #34. Then he's stopped dead in his tracks at his first conscious attempt, in #36. Finally, in a desperate attempt, he turns to some sort of reverse psychology in #37.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And yet, When Romita pitched the idea of killing Aunt May, it was 20 year old Conway who managed to shift that to "let's kill Gwen".

Because he thought that would have a major emotional impact. If you kill Aunt May after she's been written as a nuisance in previous stories, after Lee drove her out of the books, when she barely appeared in stories up to then, then it means nothing. Killing off Gwen would have had the most impact then. But anyway, ultimately the concept was Romita Sr's (kill off character) and he had the right to accept and veto Conway's suggestions.

I can imagine Wein, Wolfman and O'Neil making progress, rather than plunge her into regression. I certainly would've loved to see Stern writing Gwen.

Wein was happy to just continue where Conway left off, Wolfman wanted to chase his bizarre and ill-informed interpretation of the original Ditko run, O'Neil was happy to continue where Wolfman left off. As for Roger Stern. He was certainly not a fan of Gwen,
"Gwen's Stacy death made her the holy version...this ideal woman for Peter...People who say that weren't around for the whole run. They've forgotten how nasty she was. She wasn't the most stable. She'd be all lovey-dovey one moment, and then hands-off the next. She was very strange. Just prior to her death, there was a long period when they were on the outs."
— Roger Stern Spider-Man Crawlspace Episode 37: Roger Stern Interview Pt. 2', Timestamp: 52:00 — 55:00

So that might give you some idea of how he'd have tackled her. Stern was always interested in believable psychology, so maybe he'd portray Gwen as having actual psychological problems (you can easily read the Lee-Romita Gwen as suffering from bipolar disorder). Stern came up with Mary Jane's backstory because he wanted her to have a believable psychology after noting that her origins were never mentioned before which left it open for him to put his own spin on it (he based it on female students at his wife's college where she was a teacher). Stern wasn't keen on MJ and Peter having a romance again but he also admitted that he liked Mary Jane as a character and felt she was the best character from the Romita era. So maybe he could have done something with Gwen to make her more interesting and compelling. He certainly wouldn't sweep her flaws under the rug.

The thing that strikes me on re-reading Gwen from the Ditko to the Romita eras is that she actually has a lot of material to be reworked into an interesting character. You can easily retcon her by pointing out she has mental issues, bipolar disorder, that she has a rather too extreme oedipal complex (she loves her father and falls for a boy who is like her father and who she keeps trying to groom into becoming more like Dad). She also has a capacity for cruelty and malice which was there in Ditko's run and subconsciously it never really left Lee-Romita's portrayal of the character. Her bizarre flirtation with right-wing politics, also makes her pretty interesting and disturbing. Gwen had everything you need to be an interesting character, without ever actually becoming interesting.

[Lee]

No it isn't. Being on a treadmill isn't cyclical.

DC is actually cyclical. Where each new universe and reboot forms a complete circle. So the Silver Age began with "Flash of Two Worlds" and ended with COIE. That circle was in and of itself complete, paving the way for a new cycle that came afterwards.

Marvel Comics on the other hand is supposed to be linear, a zig-zag squiggly line rather than a straight one, but it's forward moving. It's best comics, and best stories came when it advanced.

This "illusion of change" claptrap, as some here seem to understand it, is a nonsense interpretation, that was never consistently practised by Marvel.

A lot of Marvel Comics is cyclical. If you can't see it, I don't know what to tell you. I gave one example with Eddie Brock becoming Venom again.

[Ozymandias]

Because he thought that would have a major emotional impact. If you kill Aunt May after she's been written as a nuisance in previous stories, after Lee drove her out of the books, when she barely appeared in stories up to then, then it means nothing. Killing off Gwen would have had the most impact then.

Actually, he freely admits it was just his personal preference, he was thinking about Peter when he opposed to killing his Aunt, because he feels she was the moral linchpin, but steering that death train in Gwen's direction... yeah, that was simply because he didn't like the character and he wanted to promote his "dream girl".

"Gwen's Stacy death made her the holy version...this ideal woman for Peter...People who say that weren't around for the whole run. They've forgotten how nasty she was. She wasn't the most stable. She'd be all lovey-dovey one moment, and then hands-off the next. She was very strange. Just prior to her death, there was a long period when they were on the outs."
— Roger Stern Spider-Man Crawlspace Episode 37: Roger Stern Interview Pt. 2', Timestamp: 52:00 — 55:00

So that might give you some idea of how he'd have tackled her. Stern was always interested in believable psychology, so maybe he'd portray Gwen as having actual psychological problems (you can easily read the Lee-Romita Gwen as suffering from bipolar disorder). Stern came up with Mary Jane's backstory because he wanted her to have a believable psychology after noting that her origins were never mentioned before which left it open for him to put his own spin on it (he based it on female students at his wife's college where she was a teacher). Stern wasn't keen on MJ and Peter having a romance again but he also admitted that he liked Mary Jane as a character and felt she was the best character from the Romita era. So maybe he could have done something with Gwen to make her more interesting and compelling. He certainly wouldn't sweep her flaws under the rug.

If why the "long period" he means the whole five issues she spent in London...

I'm not sure it's necessary to make her a mental patient to make her believable, unless you want to measure that particular character by a different standard. I'm pretty confident he would've figured it out back then.

As for sweeping flaws under the rug no, that isn't uncle Rog, that was Conway with MJ.

The thing that strikes me on re-reading Gwen from the Ditko to the Romita eras is that she actually has a lot of material to be reworked into an interesting character. You can easily retcon her by pointing out she has mental issues, bipolar disorder, that she has a rather too extreme oedipal complex (she loves her father and falls for a boy who is like her father and who she keeps trying to groom into becoming more like Dad). She also has a capacity for cruelty and malice which was there in Ditko's run and subconsciously it never really left Lee-Romita's portrayal of the character. Her bizarre flirtation with right-wing politics, also makes her pretty interesting and disturbing. Gwen had everything you need to be an interesting character, without ever actually becoming interesting.

Everything is in the eye of the beholder, much like her "bullying" Aunt May.

[Frontier]

I feel like Gwen would've been written out of the book one way or another. It happened to a lot of love interests of that era.

That's fine. I knew Eddie Brock would probably become Venom again, but I still had a good time reading about Agent Venom. A lot of it is cyclical.

Agent Venom was a lot more meaningful then Peter's post-OMD romances.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Actually, he freely admits it was just his personal preference, he was thinking about Peter when he opposed to killing his Aunt, because he feels she was the moral linchpin,

In other interviews he said it was also because Aunt May was too predictable. She had been close to dying numerous times, and that well had run dry already even 100 issues in.

If why the "long period" he means the whole five issues she spent in London...

They were on outs before after her father died where she lashed at Peter for taking photos of Spider-Man (ASM#91). She left New York without telling Peter or anyone. And then after she came back there was the love triangle with her and Flash Thompson which made Peter feel jealous and insecure and her driving away Aunt May out of the books.

I'm not sure it's necessary to make her a mental patient to make her believable,

It's one way to explain the character inconsistencies on page. Roger Stern was very much a progressive in that he worked with the characters as written and handed to him, and strove to find a way to resolve contradictions and oddities that came up on account of the gulf from when the character was introduced to their most recent take. I am not saying he would have, but if you want to have some idea of what Stern might do with a "still living Gwen" that's one example of what might have been.

As for sweeping flaws under the rug no, that isn't uncle Rog, that was Conway with MJ.

You mean the Epilogue of 122 where Peter lashes at MJ based on her flighty behavior before, her constant grappling with her feelings for Peter that Conway showed carefully throughout his run? Conway acknowledged MJ's character in the Lee-Romita and he transformed MJ gradually and slowly into the character she has since become. And he did so without any backstory or explanations (that was Wolfman/Stern/Defalco who came up with that). So Conway didn't sweep anything under the rug.

When Roger Stern came in, he had to find a way to make Mary Jane charismatic and sympathetic again when she had the baggage among some readers for breaking Peter's heart for turning down his proposal. Among comics writers, that's kind of a death sentence for female characters (saying "no" which you know quite a few male readers don't believe women have the right to say) so she was basically in "fan jail", and Stern had to make her friendly and likable again. So the backstory was inserted to explain a) Why Aunt May felt Mary Jane was right for Peter ("both of you have lost so much") b) Why she turned down Peter. Quite unintentionally and accidentally (and from my perspective, hilariously) it ended up paving the way for Mary Jane marrying Peter for real. Because Stern's backstory made her the most developed and deepest character after Peter, the one who was most compatible with him, and the only one charismatic enough to hold the attention of readers of multiple generations.

[Ozymandias]

It happened to a lot of love interests of that era.

So true, but it was because they didn't want to marry everyone, and out of marriage couples were frowned upon. That's why, for example, the Pyms were out of the Avengers, just when they had lost their own comic. It made no much sense, commercially, to demote a couple of characters, from having half a mag, plus their spot in a team, to nothing. The only reason was that they still weren't the Pyms. When plans to marry them were ready to move ahead, they came back and the knot was tied in a few years.

Another reason to be so casual about getting rid of them, one way or another, was that there wasn't much to any of them. This includes super powered individuals like Janet herself, Wanda, Jean or Sue. They were kept along only because they were costumes. Ditko's female characters, on the other hand, were different and had more substance, as much as their male counterparts and even more, than many non-Ditko characters. This was true not just for Gwen, but for Betty and Liz too. Even Aunt May, not matter how picturesque she may appear as per Ditko's rendition.

In other interviews he said it was also because Aunt May was too predictable. She had been close to dying numerous times, and that well had run dry already even 100 issues in.

He obviously didn't know they would still try to kill her three more times, that I can recall. lol

They were on outs before after her father died where she lashed at Peter for taking photos of Spider-Man (ASM#91). She left New York without telling Peter or anyone. And then after she came back there was the love triangle with her and Flash Thompson which made Peter feel jealous and insecure

Eye of the beholder again, they only time they were really on the outs was when Peter published those pictures incriminating Captain Stacy, and as usual, she did the right thing. And what love triangle?

You mean the Epilogue of 122 where Peter lashes at MJ based on her flighty behavior before, her constant grappling with her feelings for Peter that Conway showed carefully throughout his run? Conway acknowledged MJ's character in the Lee-Romita and he transformed MJ gradually and slowly into the character she has since become. And he did so without any backstory or explanations (that was Wolfman/Stern/Defalco who came up with that). So Conway didn't sweep anything under the rug.

Not the image I had in mind, but yeah, that last panel was so inconsistent with the character's behavior, that prior to my participation in forums, I always thought she had closed the door from the outside. That made much more sense to me. Eye of the beholder again.

When Roger Stern came in, he had to find a way to make Mary Jane charismatic and sympathetic again when she had the baggage among some readers for breaking Peter's heart for turning down his proposal.

But it was the answer she had to give, organically speaking. It's Peter's wits we have to question, for even popping the question.