How much do you like MJ?

[Spider-Tiger]

Not the image I had in mind, but yeah, that last panel was so inconsistent with the character's behavior, that prior to my participation in forums, I always thought she had closed the door from the outside. That made much more sense to me. Eye of the beholder again.

MJ wasn't fleshed out in the Lee-Romita run. So it's hard to call something inconsistent or OOC, when we barely knew the character apart from surface details. We hadn't seen MJ in a situation like this before so there was no precedent for how she would react. It just sounds like her doing anything kind didn't match your negative judgment of her character.

There's "eye of the beholder", and then there's an interpretation that's absolutely not supported by what's on the page. The last panel blatantly has Peter sitting in the room with her.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

MJ wasn't fleshed out in the Lee-Romita run. So it's hard to call something inconsistent or OCC, when we barely knew the character apart from surface details. We hadn't seen MJ in a situation like this before, so there was no precedent for how she would react. It just sounds like her doing anything kind didn't match your negative judgment of her character.

There's "eye of the beholder", and then there's an interpretation that's absolutely not supported by what's on the page. The last panel blatantly has Peter sitting in the room with her.

And again, MJ's previous characterization was acknowledged by Conway, and by numerous other characters (namely Peter himself in that scene) throughout that run. It wasn't some sudden change. It was slow and gradual, and Conway built her up issue-by-issue leading to that big kiss in ASM#143 and the First Clone Saga where MJ is the emotional center of that story again.

Conway didn't sweep MJ's previous characterization or ignore it, as compared to say, how Stan Lee and Romita, ignored and swept away Gwen's Ditko-era characterization. Lee-Romita pretended that the Ditko Gwen, she of the perpetually sneer, never existed and they never acknowledged that version of her before totally overhauling and revising the character.

[Agent Z]

MJ had many affairs behind spideys back did she not?

No she didn't.

[Agent Z]

I really disagree with that. 1: You let Osborn off the hook. Like the rapist blaming the victim.

Except the victim in this case is Gwen. Peter is more like the person who knows the rapist has a history of drugging people's drinks but doesn't say anything until it's too late.

2: How much did Gwen despise Spider-Man because of the death of her father? A lot. You could have said goodbye to Gwen if that happened.

Maybe, maybe not. There was a what if where Peter revealed his identity to her and she accepted him. At least she'd have still been alive.

3: Peter tries to keep a balance between Peter Parker and Spider-Man, most other heroes are superheroes 24/7, that is why he lies ( even to Aunt May).

He has at least three supervillains who know his secret identity. That ship sailed a long time ago and took Gwen with it to the bottom of the sea.

4: There is only one person who can handle both the Spider and the Man and that is MJ. Gwen could not, Felicia could not, Betty could not and especially Carly could not. That is perhaps ( although not the only reason) why MJ is Pete’s soulmate

Not really relevant to the question.

[Ozymandias]

MJ wasn't fleshed out in the Lee-Romita run. So it's hard to call something inconsistent or OOC, when we barely knew the character apart from surface details. We hadn't seen MJ in a situation like this before so there was no precedent for how she would react. It just sounds like her doing anything kind didn't match your negative judgment of her character.

There's "eye of the beholder", and then there's an interpretation that's absolutely not supported by what's on the page. The last panel blatantly has Peter sitting in the room with her.

She was more fleshed out than the average Silver Age character, enough to predict how she'd react in a given situation, in this case a similar one to when Captain Stacy died. Remember her first reaction in the mag? Joking about her going away. And yes, her doing anything kind didn't match the character.

This is what 9 year old me saw on the page:



The way Peter remains static, not reacting to MJ's unexpected decision, plus him being half painted yellow, made me think it was a superimposed image, and that they were at both sides of the door. Closer inspection of the original page (after reading people talking about it), made me realize that wasn't the case, which brings up her behavior into question.

And again, MJ's previous characterization was acknowledged by Conway, and by numerous other characters (namely Peter himself in that scene) throughout that run. It wasn't some sudden change. It was slow and gradual, and Conway built her up issue-by-issue leading to that big kiss in ASM#143 and the First Clone Saga where MJ is the emotional center of that story again.

Conway didn't sweep MJ's previous characterization or ignore it

What was acknowledged trough Peter's words, was the perception others had of the character, but making her act in an unexpected way, he was trying to say that everyone, who thought that way, was wrong. This is akin to taking a big broom and making a god bump on the rug, with all that sweeping.

Once Gwen was out of the picture, he took his time, but just a few issues later, she was still oblivious to anyone else's problems, namely Harry's, while at the beginning of #121, Conway had her depicted with a guilty look, at Harry's bedside. That was sudden, that was OOC.

[Frontier]

I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me was that he wast still lost in grief that he didn't even notice her still being there. I doubt the scene was intended otherwise.

If MJ acted in alternate ways, I think it was more because she was a complex character with depth. That's why she appealed to a lot of people.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What was acknowledged trough Peter's words, was the perception others had of the character, but making her act in an unexpected way, he was trying to say that everyone, who thought that way, was wrong.

No.

Conway was communicating the consequences that MJ's actions had until now. And as is clear from the way that scene is drawn, with MJ being hesitant about leaving or staying, her decision to be there for Peter surprises even her, showing a level of courage which even she didn't know she had.

Seriously the incredibly nuanced and realistic character behavior in that epilogue is still unsurpassed in terms of using body language to communicate interiority. Without need of captions or thought bubbles, you get a sense of interior character conflict and struggle.

This is akin to taking a big broom and making a god bump on the rug, with all that sweeping.

As per the rules of serial comics, this is very much par for the course. If you want to change the character or story, you acknowledge the previous characterization and find a way to suggest something else behind it. Nothing is swept under the rug. Sweeping under the rug is what happened to Gwen where her Ditko-era characterization has to this day, never once been referred to by any writer in flashback or nostalgia issue, and everyone pretends the Gwenstalgia version was the actual character.

[Ozymandias]

Conway was communicating the consequences that MJ's actions had until now. And as is clear from the way that scene is drawn, with MJ being hesitant about leaving or staying, her decision to be there for Peter surprises even her, showing a level of courage which even she didn't know she had.

Seriously the incredibly nuanced and realistic character behavior in that epilogue is still unsurpassed in terms of using body language to communicate interiority. Without need of captions or thought bubbles, you get a sense of interior character conflict and struggle.

That would all be good and well, if I thought it was a question of courage, but callousness you don't overcome.

As per the rules of serial comics, this is very much par for the course. If you want to change the character or story, you acknowledge the previous characterization and find a way to suggest something else behind it. Nothing is swept under the rug. Sweeping under the rug is what happened to Gwen where her Ditko-era characterization has to this day, never once been referred to by any writer in flashback or nostalgia issue, and everyone pretends the Gwenstalgia version was the actual character.

Gwen also showed outbursts during the Romita-Kane era. Like the one you mentioned with Aunt May, so Ditko's heritage wasn't completely forgotten. In any instance, not more than Peter himself. Romita sweet-smiled them all (I think that's the expression he used).

[Spider-Tiger]

She was more fleshed out than the average Silver Age character, enough to predict how she'd react in a given situation,

No she wasn't. All we knew about MJ during the Romita run was that she was a girl who liked to party and dance and was pursuing acting. In terms of personality traits, she was noncommittal and flippant. These characteristics alone do not make a fleshed out character. We had no idea why she behaved this way, what her internal thought process was, and whether she was capable of change. (Compare this to the protagonist or antagonists of the book at the time.) And what Conway did does not contradict any of these characteristics. Quite the opposite: it builds on them to produce a more nuanced psychology.

in this case a similar one to when Captain Stacy died. Remember her first reaction in the mag? Joking about her going away.

MJ appears 5 issues after Captain Stacy died and there is no mention of it in the scene you speak of. We have no idea what her initial reaction to this news was or how she treated Gwen. Additionally, we have no idea what she was thinking. Sometimes it's easier to be flippant than to face the harsh realities of life, and that's precisely the angle that writers took with the character. Is it the perfect thing to do? No, but that doesn't make her evil or lacking in empathy. Additionally, the epilogue of ASM #122 can't be viewed in isolation in a serial story. It's the culmination of multiple tragedies all happening in short succession (Captain Stacy's death, Harry's drug abuse and relapse, Gwen's death) and Peter's harsh confrontation of her flippant behavior that compelled her to change. Gwen's death (as shocking as it would have been for MJ) was just the tipping point.

And yes, her doing anything kind didn't match the character.

You act like MJ was a sociopath who murdered Gwen herself. Your perspective of these characters is far more black and white than what is actually portrayed in these stories.

This is what 9 year old me saw on the page:



The way Peter remains static, not reacting to MJ's unexpected decision, plus him being half painted yellow, made me think it was a superimposed image, and that they were at both sides of the door. Closer inspection of the original page (after reading people talking about it), made me realize that wasn't the case, which brings up her behavior into question.

I have seen this page several times, but I have never seen that yellow streak. It looks like some sort of printing/coloration error.

[SpideyCeo]

No, she didn't. There were guys who tried to tempt her away from Peter, but she never cheated on him. Not once. Where did you even get that from?

i heard in ironman, she had a fling with ironman, and in an else worlds she slept with venom when she felt peter had died.

[SpideyCeo]

My sentiments exactly. Mary Jane isn't just a love interest. She is essentially the deuteragonist of 616 Spider-man continuity.

No, thats either JJ or Aunt May, MJ is just a trophy love interest. But the main trophy love interest.

[SpideyCeo]

Fundamentally, there's the fact that Peter as a character can never have too many love interests or girlfriends. He was never intended to be a ladies' man and womanizer type like Tony Stark, Wolverine, Johnny Storm and Daredevil.

The more new girlfriends you introduce and keep the character from growing up, the more Peter's gonna come across as a skirt-chaser as time passes.

Stan Lee himself realized this very early and that's why he believed that the stories needed to have, as he put it, "a heroine". Initially he believed Gwen could play that, but then accepted Mary Jane was the better choice.



We are all Armchair Editors here you know. Some of us speak with conviction and knowledge about "the kind that Marvel makes" too.



Testify.

MJ is mot a heroine, spiderwoman aka gwen stacy is this. Spidey can have a prolific if not a wide spread sex life wothout beibg tied to mj because hes the quessential everyman young teen male hero fantasy, and his relationship with mj doesnt need to limit that.

[SpideyCeo]

If MJ is boring did you ever read stories with Carlie Cooper, Betty Brant or Gwen Stacy?

Meh at least they were involvee around villains and Peter being at his most nuerotic.

[SpideyCeo]

You must love Dan Slott’s run ( oops I forgot the boring Carlie Cooper and Cindy Moon ( plus Otto’s Anna Maria ( Her I actually liked)).

Dan Slott kept Peters Date life out of focus for the action, and it was mostly around peter or spock willingness to incorperate spidey for bad or god.

[Spider-Tiger]

And as is clear from the way that scene is drawn, with MJ being hesitant about leaving or staying, her decision to be there for Peter surprises even her, showing a level of courage which even she didn't know she had.

That would all be good and well, if I thought it was a question of courage, but callousness you don't overcome.

It's courageous because it's akin to jumping into the deep end of a swimming pool when you have a fear of drowning.

Many people refer to MJ's character arc as learning to be less self-centered, but I've realized that that's an oversimplification that's not entirely accurate. What Conway suggested in his run is that MJ's flippancy was a defense mechanism rooted in a fear of vulnerability. So it isn't that she was incapable of caring about others, but she suppressed these emotions as a form of self-preservation.

As Revolutionary Jack pointed out, we see this manifest throughout Conway's run when MJ vacillates between compassion and flippancy in her relationship with Peter. She was being pulled in opposite directions by her fears and the sincere affection that she had developed for Peter. We even see glimmers of this type of internal conflict in the Lee-Romita era such as when MJ supports a tearful Gwen in ASM #87 only to turn around and make a cruel joke at Gwen's expense later in the same issue. Or in ASM #55 when Gwen suggests MJ is serious "far more often than she'd like you to suspect..." Stern/Defalco doubled down on this idea when they revealed that MJ had grown up in an abusive home (while playing the class clown in school), and abandoned her sister to avoid being trapped.