View Poll Results: What option fits you better, when it comes to Peter's main romantic interests?

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  • MJ and no other

    28 45.90%
  • MJ followed by Felcia and no other

    5 8.20%
  • MJ followed by Gwen and no other

    2 3.28%
  • MJ followed by Felcia and Gwen (in that order)

    6 9.84%
  • MJ followed by Gwen and Felicia (in that order)

    6 9.84%
  • Gwen and no other

    3 4.92%
  • Gwen followed by Felcia and no other

    0 0%
  • Gwen followed by MJ and no other

    0 0%
  • Gwen followed by Felcia and MJ (in that order)

    2 3.28%
  • Gwen followed by MJ and Felcia (in that order)

    3 4.92%
  • Felicia and no other

    2 3.28%
  • Felicia followed by Gwen and no other

    1 1.64%
  • Felicia followed by MJ and no other

    0 0%
  • Felicia followed by MJ and Gwen (in that order)

    1 1.64%
  • Felicia followed by Gwen and MJ (in that order)

    2 3.28%
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  1. #151
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    i heard in ironman, she had a fling with ironman, and in an else worlds she slept with venom when she felt peter had died.
    You heard wrong. Her relationship with Tony Stark in Iron Man was strictly professional, and if not professional, then platonic. They were never romantically involved or sexually intimate, despite what some tabloids tried to suggest back in the JMS run when Peter and his family moved into Stark Tower with the New Avengers. Oh, and What Ifs? and Elseworlds are alternate realities, not canon to the mainline continuity.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #152
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    All we knew about MJ during the Romita run was that she was a girl who liked to party and dance and was pursuing acting. In terms of personality traits, she was noncommittal and flippant. These characteristics alone do not make a fleshed out character.
    Some people (real flesh and bone) don't have much more going for them, how do you flesh out someone like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    MJ appears 5 issues after Captain Stacy died and there is no mention of it in the scene you speak of. We have no idea what her initial reaction to this news was or how she treated Gwen. Additionally, we have no idea what she was thinking. Sometimes it's easier to be flippant than to face the harsh realities of life, and that's precisely the angle that writers took with the character. Is it the perfect thing to do? No, but that doesn't make her evil or lacking in empathy. Additionally, the epilogue of ASM #122 can't be viewed in isolation in a serial story. It's the culmination of multiple tragedies all happening in short succession (Captain Stacy's death, Harry's drug abuse and relapse, Gwen's death) and Peter's harsh confrontation of her flippant behavior that compelled her to change. Gwen's death (as shocking as it would have been for MJ) was just the tipping point.
    It was implicit, she was part of the group, so even if she didn't attend Captain Stacy's funeral, she must've known why she went to London, not to mention that she had gone. Her comment is just one in a long series of sneers she often regaled Gwen with. About her reaction to Captain Stacy's death, Harry's drug abuse and relapse, Gwen's death... only the last two, during Conway's era, elicited any empathic response from her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    You act like MJ was a sociopath who murdered Gwen herself. Your perspective of these characters is far more black and white than what is actually portrayed in these stories.
    There's quite a difference between being callous and being a sociopath. And before Conway, she was callous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    I have seen this page several times, but I have never seen that yellow streak. It looks like some sort of printing/coloration error.
    I'm sure it was intentional. The publisher here had a staff artist to redo the covers, sometimes he also retouched interior art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    It's courageous because it's akin to jumping into the deep end of a swimming pool when you have a fear of drowning.

    Many people refer to MJ's character arc as learning to be less self-centered, but I've realized that that's an oversimplification that's not entirely accurate. What Conway suggested in his run is that MJ's flippancy was a defense mechanism rooted in a fear of vulnerability. So it isn't that she was incapable of caring about others, but she suppressed these emotions as a form of self-preservation.
    Before Conway, there was no indication of such internal turmoil or any related fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    As Revolutionary Jack pointed out, we see this manifest throughout Conway's run when MJ vacillates between compassion and flippancy in her relationship with Peter. She was being pulled in opposite directions by her fears and the sincere affection that she had developed for Peter. We even see glimmers of this type of internal conflict in the Lee-Romita era such as when MJ supports a tearful Gwen in ASM #87 only to turn around and make a cruel joke at Gwen's expense later in the same issue. Or in ASM #55 when Gwen suggests MJ is serious "far more often than she'd like you to suspect..." Stern/Defalco doubled down on this idea when they revealed that MJ had grown up in an abusive home (while playing the class clown in school), and abandoned her sister to avoid being trapped.
    A much simpler explanation, in accordance with the character, as depicted in a much simpler era, would be that she grew interested in that which no longer was available to her.

    I glanced of #87 and saw no such support, what did i miss?

    I read the sequence from #55, and Gwen is just warning Peter about the seriousness of MJ negative comments about her. She's not implying complexity in MJ's character, she's saying that's not a well spirited joke.

  3. #153
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Before Conway, there was no indication of such internal turmoil or any related fear.
    Before Conway, society in general didn't seem very interested in accepting women as human beings with their own hopes, dreams, insecurities, complex personalities, sexuality etc. In the Lee era, women were still encouraged to become not more than "happy homemakers" (Second Wave Feminism had started in the late 60's but Lee was slightly behind his time in his depiction of women, priming Gwen to be the "perfect girlfriend" with MJ being little more than her foil and an "intriguing distraction" for Peter).

    When the still teenaged Conway come onto the book, second wave feminism was at its peak with the movement to get the Equal Rights Amendment ratified in the '70s (yes, I've been watching Mrs. America on Hulu). As an impressionable young man, Conway's perspectives were obviously impacted by the social changes happening around him at the time (especially in his base of operations in New York which was the nexus of these progressive movements), influencing his tastes and preferences when it came to the depiction of women characters. Being from a different generation and from a different time, Conway now saw MJ as the new norm for modern womanhood and Gwen as an underdeveloped, outdated trope. All of that is reflected in the narrative choices that he made.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 05-19-2020 at 04:04 AM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Before Conway, society in general didn't seem very interested in accepting women as human beings with their own hopes, dreams, insecurities, complex personalities, sexuality etc. In the Lee era, women were still encouraged to become not more than "happy homemakers" (Second Wave Feminism had started in the late 60's but Lee was slightly behind his time in his depiction of women, priming Gwen to be the "perfect girlfriend" with MJ being little more than her foil and an "intriguing distraction" for Peter).

    When the still teenaged Conway come onto the book, second wave feminism was at its peak with the movement to get the Equal Rights Amendment ratified in the '70s (yes, I've been watching Mrs. America on Hulu). As an impressionable young man, Conway's perspectives were obviously impacted by the social changes happening around him at the time (especially in his base of operations in New York which was the nexus of these progressive movements), influencing his tastes and preferences when it came to the depiction of women characters. Being from a different generation and from a different time, Conway now saw MJ as the new norm for modern womanhood and Gwen as an underdeveloped, outdated trope. All of that is reflected in the narrative choices that he made.
    I am not a mind reader or psychic so I do not know what was in Conway’s thinking when it went to Gwen or MJ, but I am of the opinion that MJ was always going to be the chosen one ( even going back to Ditko). Why? She is the one Aunt May wanted for Peter. Why? Aunt May knows Peter personality better then anyone ( Except of course, MJ), and felt she would be the best fit. Why is she? MJ is tough but has a huge heart. She came from The Wrong Side Of The Tracks and made something of herself. Pete needs someone who can give him a both a shoulder to cry on or a kick in the ass ( depending on the situation). Not to mention Aunt May knows the family. so she was aware of her character flaws ( including being a party girl), but chose her anyway. One thing you learn about MJ is she had a lot of hostility and hurt towards Peter like in ASM 87 where she said to Gwen You can have him ( referring to Peter). When you think about it, that makes a lot of sense, because she knew he really was Spider-Man, and he was lying to her and everyone else ( of course, it took years for that to come out).
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 05-19-2020 at 05:18 AM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Some people (real flesh and bone) don't have much more going for them, how do you flesh out someone like that?
    Human beings are biologically hardwired for survival, and in the early stages of life, we develop a pattern of behavior that enables that survival. Everyone has their own internal framework that dictates what they do and how they behave because that is the blueprint by which they learned to survive.

    No one behaves just 'cause. To say that some people are only a couple of traits just 'cause is just bad writing.

    That's not to say that every character in a story needs to be super developed. MJ was peripheral to the story in the Lee-Romita run so there was no need to give us any insight as to her perspective during that time. Conway brought her to the forefront and developed her accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    It was implicit, she was part of the group, so even if she didn't attend Captain Stacy's funeral, she must've known why she went to London, not to mention that she had gone.
    You're misrepresenting the context of that scene and filling in the blanks to match your judgment of the character. No one in that scene is mourning the death of Captain Stacy. There's a difference between the first time we, the audience, see a character after an event and a character's "first reaction" to said event. MJ's "first reaction" happened off page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Her comment is just one in a long series of sneers she often regaled Gwen with.
    Those "sneers" were in jest, and Gwen dished it right back. Do you believe MJ bullied Gwen?

    My interpretation of this specific comment is that MJ is trying to pretend as if nothing had changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    There's quite a difference between being callous and being a sociopath. And before Conway, she was callous.
    First of all, I'd say flippant is more apt descriptor of that character than callous.

    Second, intent matters. People behave in a callous manner for all sorts of reasons, and it isn't a fixed personality construct in the same way that sociopathy is.

    Again, we weren't given any insight as to why MJ behaved the way that she did to make the kind of definitive judgment you seem to be making.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    I glanced of #87 and saw no such support, what did i miss?
    At her birthday party, Gwen is standing by a window wondering where Peter is. MJ approaches her and tells her that "No cat is worth getting all uptight about." MJ also tells Gwen that Peter isn't worth her tears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    I read the sequence from #55, and Gwen is just warning Peter about the seriousness of MJ negative comments about her. She's not implying complexity in MJ's character, she's saying that's not a well spirited joke.
    "Warning"? I dont think Gwen took MJ's comment as some sort of serious threat.

    Either way, that's one interpretation. The comment is vague, and the development to MJ's character suggest a double meaning. The comment inadvertently works to support the development.

    Edit: Mind you I know it wasn't Lee's intent to depict any sort of internal conflict in the aformentioned scenes. Author intent be damned though, the scenes work well to support Conway's additions.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 05-19-2020 at 03:53 PM.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I kind of liked Chat, from Marvel Adventures Spider-Man. I thought she was cool. I sort of miss her. I loved that series, over a decade ago. I like unconventional love interests sometimes, I guess?

    Mary Jane Watson is legitimately compelling on some level that a lot of "OTP" characters aren't - but only when the writers go out of their way not to romanticize and idealize her relationship with Peter, in my opinion. Which is also exactly how I feel about Lois Lane, for that matter. The characters work best when the relationship between Peter and Mary Jane, or Clark and Lois, aren't treated as inevitable, but as real relationships, with all the complexities that can come with that.

    I remember a story that implied that Mary Jane was kind of messed up by her abusive dad, and that she couldn't help seeing Peter as a sort of "good monster," an alpha predator who could protect her from any threat - her "Tiger". I liked that idea a lot, way more than treating them as some kind of destined soulmates.
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  7. #157
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Voted for MJ and no other. I'm a big fan of Spider-girl/Mayday Parker in the MC2 universe.

  8. #158
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    [QUOTE=John Venus;4979087]Voted for MJ and no other. I'm a big fan of Spider-girl/Mayday Parker in the MC2 universe.[/QUOTE
    This poll is the latest example of MJ winning. Maybe one day Marvel will get with the program, and realize MJ is most people’s choice. Felicia is a good character and needs to land in a different spot then Amazing, Original Gwen needs to remain “Sleeping With The Fish”, and Cindy and Carly need to be as far away from Peter as possible.

  9. #159
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I kind of liked Chat, from Marvel Adventures Spider-Man. I thought she was cool. I sort of miss her. I loved that series, over a decade ago. I like unconventional love interests sometimes, I guess?

    Mary Jane Watson is legitimately compelling on some level that a lot of "OTP" characters aren't - but only when the writers go out of their way not to romanticize and idealize her relationship with Peter, in my opinion. Which is also exactly how I feel about Lois Lane, for that matter. The characters work best when the relationship between Peter and Mary Jane, or Clark and Lois, aren't treated as inevitable, but as real relationships, with all the complexities that can come with that.

    I remember a story that implied that Mary Jane was kind of messed up by her abusive dad, and that she couldn't help seeing Peter as a sort of "good monster," an alpha predator who could protect her from any threat - her "Tiger". I liked that idea a lot, way more than treating them as some kind of destined soulmates.
    Same here, though I especially like your note that writers should be careful not to overly idealize or romanticize Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, or any relationship, for that matter. That being said, I thought it was summed up best in Nick Spencer's ASM #5, where she admitted to Peter (who had become physically split between "Peter Parker" and "Spider-Man" by the Isotope Genome Accelerator) that as much as she feared for him (and herself) every time he went out there as Spider-Man, it was knowing that he used the power he had to protect and benefit others instead of himself that kept her coming back to him.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #160
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Has Mary Jane Watson used her public position to speak out against the dangers of tobacco consumption?
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Has Mary Jane Watson used her public position to speak out against the dangers of tobacco consumption?
    Are you referring to when she took up smoking in the 90s because she was so stressed out from trying to salvage her acting career and from Peter constantly risking his life as Spider-Man?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Has Mary Jane Watson used her public position to speak out against the dangers of tobacco consumption?
    No more than Nick Fury, Wolverine, Ben Grimm, Jameson, and other prominent smokers in Marvel before Marvel decided to make them all quit tobacco.

    And yeah, after that, MJ appeared in-comics in some anti-tobocco ads.

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