How much do you like MJ?

[Celgress]

....If there is an unifying thread in Spider-Man's continuity from the start to present, across all Spider-Man runs, then it's the love story with Peter and MJ. It's the rock solid emotional center of the entire story......

Marvel Editorial would disagree with you. They say Spidey's defining story is power and responsibility not his romantic love for any one character, I've been told this is why they often swap around his love interest in other media. They contend romance is NOT a vital part of the Spider-Man Mythos, but I digress.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Marvel Editorial would disagree with you.

Marvel Editorial of a certain area disagrees is more accurate. Marvel Editorial in the time of Jim Salicrup, Spider-Man's line editor (and considered the best by Stern and Michelinie) agrees with me.

They say Spidey's defining story is power and responsibility not his romantic love for any one character,

"Defining story" is not the same as the "emotional center" and the "unifying thread" which is what I said the Mary Jane and the Peter-MJ love story.

A long running serial story has to have a single throughline to communicate a sense of growth, no matter whatever melodrama they put in. "Power and Responsibility" is Peter's origin story but that isn't a unifying thread that explains the continuous narrative of the story across multiple media.

I've been told this is why they often swap around his love interest in other media.

They actually don't do that. Right now in the Holland movies, the main love interest is a version of MJ (in Far from Home, she is called exclusively that). Also in ITSV.

The one major time they tried to push someone else, i.e. Gwen, those movies failed, and the version of Gwen that actually sells is the one who isn't a love interest to Peter.

Felicia Hardy rarely shows up because of her similarities to Catwoman.

[Celgress]

...They actually don't do that. Right now in the Holland movies, the main love interest is a version of MJ (in Far from Home, she is called exclusively that). Also in ITSV....

You're wrong about the current movies. I've been told by Marvel employees that Michelle Jones is a "separate character" from Mary Jane. While this claim may seem laughable at first blush, it is their contention. Also, in the present cartoon, Spidey hasn't been given a love interest at all (because they think Peter should remain young in all future animated projects, if possible).

Edit - And before Mets gets after me for "quoting unnamed sources" one of the people was CB Cebulski who told me the information. I could go into how we know each other, but I'd rather not (it's way too personal).

[NC_Yankee]

Marvel Editorial of a certain area disagrees is more accurate. Marvel Editorial in the time of Jim Salicrup, Spider-Man's line editor (and considered the best by Stern and Michelinie) agrees with me.



"Defining story" is not the same as the "emotional center" and the "unifying thread" which is what I said the Mary Jane and the Peter-MJ love story.

A long running serial story has to have a single throughline to communicate a sense of growth, no matter whatever melodrama they put in. "Power and Responsibility" is Peter's origin story but that isn't a unifying thread that explains the continuous narrative of the story across multiple media.





They actually don't do that. Right now in the Holland movies, the main love interest is a version of MJ (in Far from Home, she is called exclusively that). Also in ITSV.

The one major time they tried to push someone else, i.e. Gwen, those movies failed, and the version of Gwen that actually sells is the one who isn't a love interest to Peter.

Felicia Hardy rarely shows up because of her similarities to Catwoman.

While I certainly agree with MJ being the most important person in his life ( followed by Aunt May and Teresa ( 616)). I disagree with a lot of what you are saying and I am a hard core MJ supporter. Why? 1: MJ in the MCU is NOT the MJ from 616, Newspaper strip, Renew Your Vows, or Into The Spider-Verse ( she is even different then TV cartoons). Why? Obviously she is not a redhead, but her personality is quite different. 2: The reason why the Gwen movies failed, was not Emma Stone ( Gwen), it was Andrew GarfieldÂ’s Peter. He was almost as bad as ClooneyÂ’s Batman and Reynolds Green Lantern ( although no one was on the pathetic level of SilverstoneÂ’s Batgirl). 3: I have long made the comparison between Selina and Felicia, but I really doubt that is why she was not made a major role in the movies . In fact they are talking about her and Silver Sable together. 4: The growth issue is huge to me ( but not to Marvel) and not only that lack of growth but character regression ( coupled with SlottÂ’s treatment of MJ and Felicia) is why I dropped ASM until he left the book ( it is funny how little defense you hear about SlottÂ’s run, so I am obviously not alone in my opinion). It is the problem I had with him in The Avengers ( and still have) with the MCU: Peter as comedy relief ( comics) and Iron ManÂ’s Rick Jones/kid ( MCU).

[Spider-Tiger]

If there is an unifying thread in Spider-Man's continuity from the start to present, across all Spider-Man runs, then it's the love story with Peter and MJ. It's the rock solid emotional center of the entire story. Gwen and Felicia don't rise to that level.

Mary Jane was first mentioned by Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man #15 as the girl Peter would marry, the one girl that Aunt May believed was right for her Peter. So emotionally she was set up as Peter's future right from the start. It was built in from the very start. And the story of Spider-Man, his growth, and life as a superhero is to a large sense tied to her as a character. She's also been built up by many of Spider-Man's best parts and stories featuring her are among the best in the titles.

My sentiments exactly. Mary Jane isn't just a love interest. She is essentially the deuteragonist of 616 Spider-man continuity.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You're wrong about the current movies.

So Zendaya's character isn't called exclusively MJ in Far From Home? Is that wrong?

I've been told by Marvel employees that Michelle Jones is a "separate character" from Mary Jane.

Your "marvel employees" have zilch to say as far as the movies go. They are produced and owned by Sony who choose and have final say on those characters and their status. And the last people they listen and speak to are people from Marvel Comics. Those low-earning verticals have far less say than marketing, distributing, accountants, agents, and other stuff actually involved in production are concerned.

The fact is that Zendaya is meant to be MJ. Why else do they make that a big moment at the end of Homecoming and call her exclusively MJ in the sequel.

Also, in the present cartoon,

A very weak and mediocre cartoon with low ratings and what is clearly its final season being cancelled without fanfare.

My sentiments exactly. Mary Jane isn't just a love interest. She is essentially the deuteragonist of 616 Spider-man continuity.

She undoubtedly is.

People might not like the fact she is, they might favor and prefer other characters, that's their right. But MJ is the second most important character in the Spider-Man continuity. Making far more appearances than anyone other than Jonah, with Aunt May at a distant third.

[Celgress]

Revolutionary_Jack I have a serious question for you -

Do you think MJ is a more important character in the Spidey Mythos than is Peter Parker? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but by reading your posts I sometimes think you are more an MJ fan than a fan of Spider-Man himself. I can take or leave Peter with or without MJ, can you?

Edit - You've already stated in the past that you think MJ is more important than Aunt May, which is why I decided (in part) to ask this question outright.

[PCN24454]

There's something really off about this thread...

[Ozymandias]

I voted Gwen, MJ, and Felicia. I was just getting into comics right after Gwen died, and was able to read back issues of her and Peter together in Marvel Tales at the same time I was reading the new books. Peter really loved Gwen and pretty much ignored MJ even though she flirted with him constantly. I feel that if Gwen hadn't died, no way would Peter have ever chosen MJ over her. However, since she did die, MJ was there for him as a friend, and their romance came about naturally due to spending time together. One of the first comics I bought was ASM 143, and that's the issue where they first kissed, just as Peter was leaving for Paris. But when he got back, Gwen's clone showed up, and almost put things back to square one. It was actually years later of them dating off and on, and periods where MJ wasn't even in the book, before they finally got serious enough to finally marry. During those times she was gone, I never minded Felicia either. That allowed Peter to have someone to share that whole part of his life with. I like all 3 of them, but Gwen was Peter's first love, and nothing is ever the same after that.

Pretty much my case. When I started reading comics, in the mid 70's, the character that grabbed me the most was Ditko's Spidey, which led to Romita's Spidey. By the end of the 70's I was getting into the ASM reprint around here (first Marvel comics to be published in color), which started smack in the middle of Conway's adaptation of Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #1. In just a few months they reached ASM #121, but the "damage" was already done. The only difference with your case, is that the reprint was the only Spider Man title on the market, the regular series caught up to the original by the end of 1975 (ASM #149) and would not resume publication until the reprint reached that point, by December 1979.

The fact is that Zendaya is meant to be MJ. Why else do they make that a big moment at the end of Homecoming and call her exclusively MJ in the sequel.

A name a rose does not make.

[Agent Z]

I chose M.J then Felicia and Gwen.

Marvel Editorial of a certain area disagrees is more accurate. Marvel Editorial in the time of Jim Salicrup, Spider-Man's line editor (and considered the best by Stern and Michelinie) agrees with me.



"Defining story" is not the same as the "emotional center" and the "unifying thread" which is what I said the Mary Jane and the Peter-MJ love story.

A long running serial story has to have a single throughline to communicate a sense of growth, no matter whatever melodrama they put in. "Power and Responsibility" is Peter's origin story but that isn't a unifying thread that explains the continuous narrative of the story across multiple media.



They actually don't do that. Right now in the Holland movies, the main love interest is a version of MJ (in Far from Home, she is called exclusively that). Also in ITSV.

The one major time they tried to push someone else, i.e. Gwen, those movies failed, and the version of Gwen that actually sells is the one who isn't a love interest to Peter.

Felicia Hardy rarely shows up because of her similarities to Catwoman.

Felicia's been in almost every Spider-Man animated series and numerous video games. Her appearances in other media outnumber Gwen's and the only Spidey love interest that outnumber's Felicia's in other media appearances is M.J herself. And the ASM movies didn't fail. The first one at least didn't.

[The tall man]

Revolutionary_Jack I have a serious question for you -

Do you think MJ is a more important character in the Spidey Mythos than is Peter Parker? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but by reading your posts I sometimes think you are more an MJ fan than a fan of Spider-Man himself. I can take or leave Peter with or without MJ, can you?

Edit - You've already stated in the past that you think MJ is more important than Aunt May, which is why I decided (in part) to ask this question outright.

I sometimes wonder that myself. Reading posts like that almost makes it seem like it's MJ and not Peter who is the central figure in the Spider Mythos. Peter is portrayed as an afterthought who is irrelevant if MJ isn't around to prop him up. He is somehow a lesser hero and person if the great MJ is not in his life. For me Peter is the only indispensable character in the entire mythos, everyone else can stay or go. Iregardless of MJ's presence Peter will always be a hero, he doesn't need MJ for that.

[Lee]

None of the above. I don't rank characters like that. I like or dislike them to varying degrees on their own merits.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Do you think MJ is a more important character in the Spidey Mythos than is Peter Parker?

I sometimes wonder that myself. Reading posts like that almost makes it seem like it's MJ and not Peter who is the central figure in the Spider Mythos. Peter is portrayed as an afterthought who is irrelevant if MJ isn't around to prop him up. He is somehow a lesser hero and person if the great MJ is not in his life. For me Peter is the only indispensable character in the entire mythos, everyone else can stay or go. Iregardless of MJ's presence Peter will always be a hero, he doesn't need MJ for that.

As far as the Spidey Mythos is concerned, no character is more important than Spider-Man. Not even Peter Parker.

Children across the world come to know Spider-Man far before they ever learn he is Peter Parker. Children play with toys, stickers, and other stuff, they see the face logo everywhere and so on. They know Spider-Man, the red-blue suit with face-covering mask far before they ever learn who he is. The appeal of Spider-Man at heart is rooted in his costume and his powers, it's rooted in the design of Steve Ditko more than the storytelling of Stan Lee. I mean check out the Spider-Man series made in Japan in the late 70s. Spider-Man became very popular there thanks to that show, and a lot of that was driven by the appeal of the costume. In terms of telling stories about Spider-Man, stories where Spider-Man fights bad guys and beats people up and so on, those stories don't really need Peter Parker to be told. Check out the 2000 Activision Spider-Man game where IIRC there isn't a single scene where you see Spider-Man without a mask in that game in any of the cutscenes.

Ultimately, people come to like Spider-Man far before they know who he is behind the mask. You can sell toys and merchandise (which is where most of the money generated by Spider-Man comes from) without consumers knowing he is Peter. So at heart, people are fans of Spider-Man more than they are Peter Parker. There's no intrinsic reason why the person behind the mask cannot be a married guy, or a teenager, or you know Japanese Supaidaman and so on. Because that has nothing to do with Spider-Man's transcendent appeal.

So no, as far as Spidey Mythos goes, I don't think Mary Jane is a more important character than Spider-Man. But the Spidey Mythos is not the same as the Peter Parker Mythos. Which brings me to the next point.

I can take or leave Peter with or without MJ, can you?

Peter without MJ is fine to read in the Lee-Ditko era, but after that not at all.

Consider the fact that the Spider-Man runs without MJ in that time (Wolfman, O'Neill) are the least popular and least respected runs on the character. The Lee-Ditko era is great but it ended and the fact is that you cannot go back to that era, it's not "factory settings" you can reset to and pull out of a hat. Spider-Man and his story grew, changed, and developed with the character. In the Lee-Ditko era, where the core of the story was pessimistic and dark, with Peter being a more shaded and gray character, having no friends, and being paranoid and on edge, that version of Peter (which by the way has never once been adapted in any version) is pretty compelling. But once Romita and others came in, the story became lighter and optimistic, and Mary Jane is the center of that, she represents the bright, optimistic, current of these stories. And Conway cemented and confirmed that in his run on ASM. And that version of ASM sold more than Ditko's run did.

The fact of the matter is that Peter Parker is almost never single. He's always in some relationship or the other. You saw that in BND and Slott's run where he cycles through 5-6 relationships in the course of his run (not including Superior of course). It's not in Peter's character to date many girls. Even Quesada said that would be out of character. So there's a limit, a cap on how many new girlfriends you can introduce. Stan Lee himself said this a few times and he felt that Spider-Man had to have a leading lady. Initially he believed Gwen could play that, but then he realized Mary Jane fit that better. So why waste people's time?

Peter without MJ is definitely not fun to read after they got married. The stories written before that, is fun to read because you know that eventually Peter got over that, and you get to see the development of Peter from his origin to the later character. Likewise, new stories set in the older continuities, like Spider-Man Blue or Untold Tales, that's fine, that's fun. But after they got married, the ongoing Peter Parker story is rooted in his emotional connection to her.

There's no real sustaining interest, no emotional connection to a version of Peter whose life is the way he is because of some catastrophically bad story like OMD. The emotional center of Spider-Man since BND is the deal with Mephisto, if and when that will be undone (Spencer's ASM#29 is about that). Everything else just spins wheels around that.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4965469]As far as the Spidey Mythos is concerned, no character is more important than Spider-Man. Not even Peter Parker.

Children across the world come to know Spider-Man far before they ever learn he is Peter Parker. Children play with toys, stickers, and other stuff, they see the face logo everywhere and so on. They know Spider-Man, the red-blue suit with face-covering mask far before they ever learn who he is. The appeal of Spider-Man at heart is rooted in his costume and his powers, it's rooted in the design of Steve Ditko more than the storytelling of Stan Lee. I mean check out the Spider-Man series made in Japan in the late 70s. Spider-Man became very popular there thanks to that show, and a lot of that was driven by the appeal of the costume. In terms of telling stories about Spider-Man, stories where Spider-Man fights bad guys and beats people up and so on, those stories don't really need Peter Parker to be told. Check out the 2000 Activision Spider-Man game where IIRC there isn't a single scene where you see Spider-Man without a mask in that game in any of the cutscenes.

Ultimately, people come to like Spider-Man far before they know who he is behind the mask. You can sell toys and merchandise (which is where most of the money generated by Spider-Man comes from) without consumers knowing he is Peter. So at heart, people are fans of Spider-Man more than they are Peter Parker. There's no intrinsic reason why the person behind the mask cannot be a married guy, or a teenager, or you know Japanese Supaidaman and so on. Because that has nothing to do with Spider-Man's transcendent appeal.

So no, as far as Spidey Mythos goes, I don't think Mary Jane is a more important character than Spider-Man. But the Spidey Mythos is not the same as the Peter Parker Mythos. Which brings me to the next point.



Peter without MJ is fine to read in the Lee-Ditko era, but after that not at all.

Consider the fact that the Spider-Man runs without MJ in that time (Wolfman, O'Neill) are the least popular and least respected runs on the character. The Lee-Ditko era is great but it ended and the fact is that you cannot go back to that era, it's not "factory settings" you can reset to and pull out of a hat. Spider-Man and his story grew, changed, and developed with the character. In the Lee-Ditko era, where the core of the story was pessimistic and dark, with Peter being a more shaded and gray character, having no friends, and being paranoid and on edge, that version of Peter (which by the way has never once been adapted in any version) is pretty compelling. But once Romita and others came in, the story became lighter and optimistic, and Mary Jane is the center of that, she represents the bright, optimistic, current of these stories. And Conway cemented and confirmed that in his run on ASM. And that version of ASM sold more than Ditko's run did.

The fact of the matter is that Peter Parker is almost never single. He's always in some relationship or the other. You saw that in BND and Slott's run where he cycles through 5-6 relationships in the course of his run (not including Superior of course). It's not in Peter's character to date many girls. Even Quesada said that would be out of character. So there's a limit, a cap on how many new girlfriends you can introduce. Stan Lee himself said this a few times and he felt that Spider-Man had to have a leading lady. Initially he believed Gwen could play that, but then he realized Mary Jane fit that better. So why waste people's time?

Peter without MJ is definitely not fun to read after they got married. The stories written before that, is fun to read because you know that eventually Peter got over that, and you get to see the development of Peter from his origin to the later character. Likewise, new stories set in the older continuities, like Spider-Man Blue or Untold Tales, that's fine, that's fun. But after they got married, the ongoing Peter Parker story is rooted in his emotional connection to her.

There's no real sustaining interest, no emotional connection to a version of Peter whose life is the way he is because of some catastrophically bad story like OMD. The emotional center of Spider-Man since BND is the deal with Mephisto, if and when that will be undone (Spencer's ASM#29 is about that). Everything else just spins wheels around that.[/QUOTE
I happen to agree with you. What I hate about Marvel is the games they play ( Jackpot being an example so is Mary Jones being referred to as MJ). They know very well that most people prefer Mary Jane to Mary Jones, Gwen, Felicia, Carlie, Betty, Cindy or anyone else. Gwen is perhaps the best example of this. They not only killed her off, but made her look bad (Her treatment of Aunt May ( which is my biggest issue) and her support of Sam Bullett long before ASM 121). In fact, MJ was always supposed to be the one, even going back to Ditko. How do I know? Aunt May who knows Peter better then anyone wanted him to be with MJ. Why? She knows MJ and her family, and despite her early flaws ( Party girl era), she was ( and still is) the best choice ( regardless of what Slott and others ( like Wolfman) thought.

[TheSuperMule]

As far as the Spidey Mythos is concerned, no character is more important than Spider-Man. Not even Peter Parker.

Children across the world come to know Spider-Man far before they ever learn he is Peter Parker. Children play with toys, stickers, and other stuff, they see the face logo everywhere and so on. They know Spider-Man, the red-blue suit with face-covering mask far before they ever learn who he is. The appeal of Spider-Man at heart is rooted in his costume and his powers, it's rooted in the design of Steve Ditko more than the storytelling of Stan Lee. I mean check out the Spider-Man series made in Japan in the late 70s. Spider-Man became very popular there thanks to that show, and a lot of that was driven by the appeal of the costume. In terms of telling stories about Spider-Man, stories where Spider-Man fights bad guys and beats people up and so on, those stories don't really need Peter Parker to be told. Check out the 2000 Activision Spider-Man game where IIRC there isn't a single scene where you see Spider-Man without a mask in that game in any of the cutscenes.

Ultimately, people come to like Spider-Man far before they know who he is behind the mask. You can sell toys and merchandise (which is where most of the money generated by Spider-Man comes from) without consumers knowing he is Peter. So at heart, people are fans of Spider-Man more than they are Peter Parker. There's no intrinsic reason why the person behind the mask cannot be a married guy, or a teenager, or you know Japanese Supaidaman and so on. Because that has nothing to do with Spider-Man's transcendent appeal.

So no, as far as Spidey Mythos goes, I don't think Mary Jane is a more important character than Spider-Man. But the Spidey Mythos is not the same as the Peter Parker Mythos. Which brings me to the next point.



Peter without MJ is fine to read in the Lee-Ditko era, but after that not at all.

Consider the fact that the Spider-Man runs without MJ in that time (Wolfman, O'Neill) are the least popular and least respected runs on the character. The Lee-Ditko era is great but it ended and the fact is that you cannot go back to that era, it's not "factory settings" you can reset to and pull out of a hat. Spider-Man and his story grew, changed, and developed with the character. In the Lee-Ditko era, where the core of the story was pessimistic and dark, with Peter being a more shaded and gray character, having no friends, and being paranoid and on edge, that version of Peter (which by the way has never once been adapted in any version) is pretty compelling. But once Romita and others came in, the story became lighter and optimistic, and Mary Jane is the center of that, she represents the bright, optimistic, current of these stories. And Conway cemented and confirmed that in his run on ASM. And that version of ASM sold more than Ditko's run did.

The fact of the matter is that Peter Parker is almost never single. He's always in some relationship or the other. You saw that in BND and Slott's run where he cycles through 5-6 relationships in the course of his run (not including Superior of course). It's not in Peter's character to date many girls. Even Quesada said that would be out of character. So there's a limit, a cap on how many new girlfriends you can introduce. Stan Lee himself said this a few times and he felt that Spider-Man had to have a leading lady. Initially he believed Gwen could play that, but then he realized Mary Jane fit that better. So why waste people's time?

Peter without MJ is definitely not fun to read after they got married. The stories written before that, is fun to read because you know that eventually Peter got over that, and you get to see the development of Peter from his origin to the later character. Likewise, new stories set in the older continuities, like Spider-Man Blue or Untold Tales, that's fine, that's fun. But after they got married, the ongoing Peter Parker story is rooted in his emotional connection to her.

There's no real sustaining interest, no emotional connection to a version of Peter whose life is the way he is because of some catastrophically bad story like OMD. The emotional center of Spider-Man since BND is the deal with Mephisto, if and when that will be undone (Spencer's ASM#29 is about that). Everything else just spins wheels around that.

Well said! My thoughts exactly.