View Poll Results: What option fits you better, when it comes to Peter's main romantic interests?

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  • MJ and no other

    28 43.08%
  • MJ followed by Felcia and no other

    5 7.69%
  • MJ followed by Gwen and no other

    3 4.62%
  • MJ followed by Felcia and Gwen (in that order)

    7 10.77%
  • MJ followed by Gwen and Felicia (in that order)

    7 10.77%
  • Gwen and no other

    3 4.62%
  • Gwen followed by Felcia and no other

    0 0%
  • Gwen followed by MJ and no other

    0 0%
  • Gwen followed by Felcia and MJ (in that order)

    2 3.08%
  • Gwen followed by MJ and Felcia (in that order)

    3 4.62%
  • Felicia and no other

    2 3.08%
  • Felicia followed by Gwen and no other

    1 1.54%
  • Felicia followed by MJ and no other

    0 0%
  • Felicia followed by MJ and Gwen (in that order)

    1 1.54%
  • Felicia followed by Gwen and MJ (in that order)

    3 4.62%
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  1. #31
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As far as the Spidey Mythos is concerned, no character is more important than Spider-Man. Not even Peter Parker.....
    I vehemently disagree. Spider-Man is Peter Parker they are one and the same. Without Peter there can be no Spider-Man it was Peter's decision to not stop the burglar, along with his guilt from said inaction, that created Spider-Man as we know him. Furthermore, Peter's personal life and the struggle between that and Spidey's responsibilities as a hero is what makes the story interesting. One cannot be separated from the other without both becoming less. You can't just stick anyone in the suit and they'll become Spider-Man.
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-11-2020 at 05:39 AM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I vehemently disagree. Spider-Man is Peter Parker they are one and the same. Without Peter there can be no Spider-Man it was Peter's decision to not stop the burglar, along with his guilt from said inaction, that created Spider-Man as we know him. Furthermore, Peter's personal life and the struggle between that and Spidey's responsibilities as a hero is what makes the story interesting. One cannot be separated from the otherwithout both becoming less. You can't just stick anyone in the suit and they'll become Spider-Man.
    You can stick others in the suit ( Miles and Miguel to name two), but The importance of Peter to Spider-Man was proven by Spencer. Pete is more important than Spider-Man. Why? If he was not then there is no need for him to have a life beyond fighting crime. What makes him work best is Pete is a reluctant hero ( unlike 24/7 heroes or Batman where Bruce Wayne is secondary to the Caped Crusader). Spider-Man No More dealt with that reluctance, so have several other issues.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I vehemently disagree.
    That's your right. Totally fair.

    Spider-Man is Peter Parker they are one and the same. Without Peter there can be no Spider-Man it was Peter's decision to not stop the burglar, along with his guilt from said inaction, that created Spider-Man as we know him.
    What you say is true if people know Spider-Man exclusively from AF#15 onwards. The fact is they don't.

    Ever since the 1967 Cartoon Series and its catchy theme song, the majority of people come to know Spider-Man, as they do Superman and Batman, from childhood, at the age of 1-4, and they know him when they are far too young to follow and understand the stories or comics. My 4 year old nephew doesn't know Spider-Man is Peter Parker but he loves playing Spider-Man toys, and considering the way he usually has Iron Man and others bowing down before his Big Spider-Man toy (in proportions picture Galactus and the MU), he probably doesn't think he's a teenager or so on, heck he doesn't even know what teenager means. The 1967 cartoon theme song became popular and came to be covered by people who didn't see the cartoon and it's used as a popular children's song. Not once in those lyrics is Peter Parker's name mentioned. Spider-Man's fame in Japan is tied to the Supaidaman show, not Peter Parker behind that mask. And yet that show inspired Power Rangers and so on. And it was rooted specifically in the appeal of the costume and its design. Ditko, not Lee.

    Then you also have the other phenomenon on YouTube and others where a bunch of crude 3d animation for toddlers flourishes (https://mashable.com/2017/02/22/spid...e-kids-videos/), where Spider-man and Elsa from Frozen have a romance. Which at the very least does suggest that even small children think A) Spider-Man is a grownup, B) Romance is part of Spider-Man's appeal.

    It was in merchandising and such licensed stuff that Spider-Man became to known to people. Are you going to tell them that this isn't the true or real Spider-Man. I don't think so. You and I both like the PS4 game, right? Do you know that only 50.3% of the people who bought and played the game completed the story (https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/ma...mpletion-rate/). Most people who bought and played Spider-Man on PS4 just played it for the open-world swinging and combat, and not for the story.

    Furthermore, Peter's personal life and the struggle between that and Spidey's responsibilities as a hero is what makes the story interesting.
    Fundamentally, in order to sell, the story doesn't matter. Spider-Man would sell in toys and merchandise even if the comics shut down tomorrow, as it is, which by the way is a possibility.

    If the story of Spider-Man and Peter Parker needs to be told in any kind of whole way, you do need Mary Jane.At the same time, let me say, that MJ is a supporting character, and as such if she were to be the lead in her own right, apart from Peter Parker, she won't be interesting either.

    Like Bendis in Invincible Iron Man tried to make MJ work as a supporting character in Stark's corner and it didn't work. Aside from verbally making fun of Tony's pretentiosuness and snobbishness, there wasn't much there for her to do.

  4. #34
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Revolutionary_Jack I think you're dead wrong. Peter Parker existing is vital to the character of Spider-Man, otherwise, it is just some slub in a costume beating people up which is frankly repetitive and boring. Take Goku of Dragon Ball fame. While Goku is a great hero who loves to challenge himself that is also all he is. If you only care about cool battles Goku is the character for you. Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Future Trunks, exact, on the other hand, are each more compelling characters than is Goku (at least Z onward) because they are more multifaceted having personal non-combat related struggles to overcome/deal with.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's your right. Totally fair.



    What you say is true if people know Spider-Man exclusively from AF#15 onwards. The fact is they don't.

    Ever since the 1967 Cartoon Series and its catchy theme song, the majority of people come to know Spider-Man, as they do Superman and Batman, from childhood, at the age of 1-4, and they know him when they are far too young to follow and understand the stories or comics. My 4 year old nephew doesn't know Spider-Man is Peter Parker but he loves playing Spider-Man toys, and considering the way he usually has Iron Man and others bowing down before his Big Spider-Man toy (in proportions picture Galactus and the MU), he probably doesn't think he's a teenager or so on, heck he doesn't even know what teenager means. The 1967 cartoon theme song became popular and came to be covered by people who didn't see the cartoon and it's used as a popular children's song. Not once in those lyrics is Peter Parker's name mentioned. Spider-Man's fame in Japan is tied to the Supaidaman show, not Peter Parker behind that mask. And yet that show inspired Power Rangers and so on. And it was rooted specifically in the appeal of the costume and its design. Ditko, not Lee.

    Then you also have the other phenomenon on YouTube and others where a bunch of crude 3d animation for toddlers flourishes (https://mashable.com/2017/02/22/spid...e-kids-videos/), where Spider-man and Elsa from Frozen have a romance. Which at the very least does suggest that even small children think A) Spider-Man is a grownup, B) Romance is part of Spider-Man's appeal.

    It was in merchandising and such licensed stuff that Spider-Man became to known to people. Are you going to tell them that this isn't the true or real Spider-Man. I don't think so. You and I both like the PS4 game, right? Do you know that only 50.3% of the people who bought and played the game completed the story (https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/ma...mpletion-rate/). Most people who bought and played Spider-Man on PS4 just played it for the open-world swinging and combat, and not for the story.



    Fundamentally, in order to sell, the story doesn't matter. Spider-Man would sell in toys and merchandise even if the comics shut down tomorrow, as it is, which by the way is a possibility.

    If the story of Spider-Man and Peter Parker needs to be told in any kind of whole way, you do need Mary Jane.At the same time, let me say, that MJ is a supporting character, and as such if she were to be the lead in her own right, apart from Peter Parker, she won't be interesting either.

    Like Bendis in Invincible Iron Man tried to make MJ work as a supporting character in Stark's corner and it didn't work. Aside from verbally making fun of Tony's pretentiosuness and snobbishness, there wasn't much there for her to do.
    I totally disagree. While I admit that Otto, Miles and ( or) Miguel can work as Spider-Man, they do not work as well as Peter. Read Requiem, or the Rhino story where Rhino’s wife died, and he went on a rampage. Only Peter by talking to Rhino and listening to him was able to stop him. Read them and you see what I mean. By the way, I always felt an interesting story arc would be Pete and MJ in a honeymoon in Tahiti away from everything, and Miles having someone like Green Goblin or Doc Ock to deal with. I bet he would not handle it well.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Revolutionary_Jack I think you're dead wrong. Peter Parker existing is vital to the character of Spider-Man, otherwise, it is just some slub in a costume beating people up which is frankly repetitive and boring.
    When we are talking about Spider-Man we need to take into consideration that most people don't interact with Spider-Man in terms of storytelling. They do so as merchandise and that makes far more money, consistently and yearly than comics, movies, cartoons, games do. And what counts there is Spider-Man and not Peter Parker. The costume more than the guy behind the mask.

    Peter Parker's story in and of itself stands apart from Spider-Man. This doesn't mean that it isn't valuable. Just that it cannot be categorically true that Spider-Man needs Peter Parker to sell because merchandise alone disproves it, the way Spider-Man is introduced to small kids disproves it. So the value of Peter Parker to Spider-Man is aesthetic rather than some fundamental and essential part of the franchise.

    If we are talking about Peter Parker and Spider-Man in the 616 Continuity, that's quite separate from the overall franchise.

    If we want to talk about the importance of Peter Parker and Spider-Man we are talking about continuity, the character who started in AF#15, and the changes and development from that. We are talking about stories, we are talking about growth. This is Marvel's most consistent high selling title for several decades in a time when Fantastic Four, former #1 declined, X-Men rose from lowest lows to highest highs, then lows and highs again. If we want to assess that continuity and which characters are important to giving it its value, I don't know how you can say that the character who made the most appearances after Peter Parker, isn't fundamentally important to these stories?

  7. #37
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    she was one of the reasons I got into Spider-man athough it was superficial as it was the Maximum carnage SNES game and the game cutscene kept the scene with the unconscious eddie at the door with Peter and MJ there, MJ robe open enough to see her bra and panties. and then went to the comic store to get that issue. got more spiderman comics got into the lore and fell in love with the character. The spider-man cartoon help with me getting more into it and I love the spider marriage, I tried the BND era but it feels so wrong, no offense. got more into x-men lore and spider-man lore and got deep into it. I feel like when Peter and MJ are back together in Spencer first issue, it feels so right, one of the things that I feel like spiderman is back to when I was into the character. I still perfer them married but I take what I can get. I mean Spencer run is the first time I enjoy their relationship since JMS run(that run has alot of problems but got alot things right)

  8. #38
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    ...I don't know how you can say that the character who made the most appearances after Peter Parker, isn't fundamentally important to these stories?
    And I don't know how you can say that Peter Parker is not as important as Spider-Man when they are the same person, two sides of the same coin. It would be like saying Darth Vader is more important to Star Wars than Anakin Skywalker (WTH!?), they are different aspects of the same character each is equally important as part of the whole narrative structure.

    Edit - And yes, I do think Spidey's story can work without a definitive love interest because at its core his story is a coming of age epic about taking responsibility for your mistakes. While I love his various girlfriends, they are only window dressing to the overall narrative. They add flavor but are not vital, MJ included.
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-11-2020 at 05:45 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    It would be like saying Darth Vader is more important to Star Wars than Anakin Skywalker
    You know, that can actually be argued. Darth Vader shows up in more movies (ANH, ESB, ROTJ, ROTS, Rogue One) than Anakin does (TPM, AOTC, ROTS, ROTJ) after all.

    The first Star Wars movie, A New Hope, made far more money, won more Oscars, got more nominations than the sequels, and also its SE re-releases made more money than the sequel re-releases, and Darth Vader isn't Anakin in ANH. STAR WARS became Star Wars and sold itself far and wide and established itself long before the idea of "Skywalker Saga" was a thing.

    And like Spider-Man, a lot of people first come to know Darth Vader on sight before they find out he's Anakin.

    And I don't know how you can say that Peter Parker is not as important as Spider-Man when they are the same person, two sides of the same coin.
    Fact is that if we followed the stories of Peter Parker, Regular No-Powers Civilian, none of us would be here. There would be no Peter Parker Boards on CBR, the comic wouldn't have become a cultural touchstone, and there would also be no Mary Jane because the comic would not have been picked up and followed in an ongoing.

    The most important part of Peter Parker is that he's Spider-Man. The most important part of Spider-Man is that, "He does whatever a Spider can".

    (WTH!?), they are different aspects of the same character each is equally important as part of the whole narrative structure.
    And again you are ignoring my point, Spider-Man makes most money as merchandise and toys, where narrative doesn't count.

    When you tell stories of Spider-Man, Peter Parker does count and have value. But it's not as a story that Spider-Man sells and makes his most money.

    If we want to talk about essential and fundamental aspects of a character, that's where you get the rock solid evidence. Not the people online, like you and me, who talk about Spider-Man continuity and so on, but the civilians, and so on.

    Edit - And yes, I do think Spidey's story can work without a definitive love interest
    In 616 continuity, there is something less than 100 issues (and we are talking probably about 70 so it's very low) where Peter Parker doesn't have a love interest or regular girlfriend.

    In Bendis' USM, the Peter Parker era (which lasted 160 issues) has 82 issues where he and Ultimate MJ are in a relationship, the others feature him and Kitty in a relationship, him and Gwen in a relationship, while about less than 30 issues include the first 12 issues before they start dating, and the break-up issues they have briefly.

    ... because at its core his story is a coming of age epic about taking responsibility for your mistakes.
    You are conflating origin with an ongoing serial narrative. Much like many Marvel editorials whose echo I hear here. The origin in AF#15 is a single 12 panel story, and that's a coming-of-age story. But Spider-Man is meant to be an ongoing and serial story. Spider-Man has been a high selling title for 58 years now, and as an ongoing serial story, the engine is not the same as that in AF#15.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You know, that can actually be argued. Darth Vader shows up in more movies (ANH, ESB, ROTJ, ROTS, Rogue One) than Anakin does (TPM, AOTC, ROTS, ROTJ) after all.

    The first Star Wars movie, A New Hope, made far more money, won more Oscars, got more nominations than the sequels, and also its SE re-releases made more money than the sequel re-releases, and Darth Vader isn't Anakin in ANH. STAR WARS became Star Wars and sold itself far and wide and established itself long before the idea of "Skywalker Saga" was a thing.

    And like Spider-Man, a lot of people first come to know Darth Vader on sight before they find out he's Anakin.




    Fact is that if we followed the stories of Peter Parker, Regular No-Powers Civilian, none of us would be here. There would be no Peter Parker Boards on CBR, the comic wouldn't have become a cultural touchstone, and there would also be no Mary Jane because the comic would not have been picked up and followed in an ongoing.

    The most important part of Peter Parker is that he's Spider-Man. The most important part of Spider-Man is that, "He does whatever a Spider can".



    And again you are ignoring my point, Spider-Man makes most money as merchandise and toys, where narrative doesn't count.

    When you tell stories of Spider-Man, Peter Parker does count and have value. But it's not as a story that Spider-Man sells and makes his most money.

    If we want to talk about essential and fundamental aspects of a character, that's where you get the rock solid evidence. Not the people online, like you and me, who talk about Spider-Man continuity and so on, but the civilians, and so on.



    In 616 continuity, there is something less than 100 issues (and we are talking probably about 70 so it's very low) where Peter Parker doesn't have a love interest or regular girlfriend.

    In Bendis' USM, the Peter Parker era (which lasted 160 issues) has 82 issues where he and Ultimate MJ are in a relationship, the others feature him and Kitty in a relationship, him and Gwen in a relationship, while about less than 30 issues include the first 12 issues before they start dating, and the break-up issues they have briefly.



    You are conflating origin with an ongoing serial narrative. Much like many Marvel editorials whose echo I hear here. The origin in AF#15 is a single 12 panel story, and that's a coming-of-age story. But Spider-Man is meant to be an ongoing and serial story. Spider-Man has been a high selling title for 58 years now, and as an ongoing serial story, the engine is not the same as that in AF#15.
    You seem to be negating your own argument. You say Spider-man is more important to the Spider Mythos than Peter but then posit that MJ is equally important to the mythos because of her relationship with Peter and the number of her appearances. But MJ primarily interacts with Peter as a civilian and not Spider-man the hero, and according to you Peter plays a secondary role in the the ongoing story of Spider-man. If that is so then wouldn't it be correct to say that it's Spider-man's battles against his many foes that is the central storyline and narrative of the Spider Mythos? That it's the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man and his mantra of "with great power comes great responsibility" that is at the heart the story of Spider-man. But you seem to say that no its MJ's relationship with Peter that is the central narrative of the story. So if according to you that its Spider-man and not Peter who is indispensable to the mythos then how can Peter's love life be the main driving point. I'm sure the majority of readers read Spider-man books for Spidey's battle's against his many foes and not for his relationship with MJ. That's why I and others believe that MJ is not indispensable to the mythos and it can continue on along fine without her presence.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    You say Spider-man is more important to the Spider Mythos than Peter
    My point is that, if in the grand scheme of things, Peter Parker isn't essential for introducing and making young kids into fans of Spider-Man, then that means that the story of Spider-Man, whatever essential or fundamental stuff people want to project on to that, is largely a subjective or aesthetic preference, and not some objective fact founded on anything. This idea that Spider-Man is some kid hero and that's the version he was always meant to be and what makes him relevant...there's zero evidence to that. Once that point is demolished, then you can actually consider the story elements and the serial elements of Spider-Man in multiple continuities for its actual sustaining intrinsic interest. Nostrums like "factory defaults", "creator's vague intentions", "How he was introduced" flutter away like the nosh it is.

    Most of Spider-Man's money comes from merchandise, and most of the consumers of that are small children too tiny to know anything about stories. The kind who see YouTube videos about Spider-Man a't nd Elsa. That demographic there is the one making money for Marvel via toys, action figures, and other baby and child products with Spidey logo and colors. The comics...whether it's 616 or Ultimate, in terms of revenue, that's so low on the totem pole, it's sad. The movies and games are big moneymakers but they don't pop in yearly, and these movies generate most income selling toys to kids who don't see the movie, whether it's Happy Meals or whatnot. People generally assume, reflexively, that Spider-Man's story, his origins as Peter Parker, is the main defining element of the character across the franchise. That assumption shared by some editors and writers at Marvel and elsewhere, who pretend somehow that everyone's first Spider-Man comic is AF#15. That the comics is the version of Spider-Man everyone knows. The empirical evidence is absolutely counter to every single article of this faith. Spider-Man is Spider-Man for most long before he is Peter Parker to them. People are introduced to Spider-Man, and not Peter Parker. It's Ditko's costume design which makes Spider-Man print green, not Stan Lee caption boxes. The mask of Spider-Man is one of the most distinct images on the planet. Like Mickey's silhouette, any child can doodle an oval, a simple line pattern and vaguely triangular shaped eyes on either side.

    In terms of assessing Spider-Man as a serial long-running narrative, i.e. 616 Spider-Man and Spider-Man in the comics as a whole, the main driving engine of Spider-Man as a serial narrative in the comics, the main emotional center, is the Peter-MJ love story. When comics had a large audience and large readership, and a greater number of eyeballs than they do now, Peter and MJ were married. Whether in Michelinie's run from the late80s to the 90s and then the collapse of the industry at that time. Until Sam Raimi's first Spider-Man movie, people across the world were first introduced to Spider-Man through Stan Lee's newspaper strip, which in the age before the internet was syndicated widely in multiple languages across the world, and as Lee and Jim Shooter among others pointed out, vastly more people read and followed Spider-Man in that newspaper strip than ever read the monthly 616 comics.

    So in terms of comics readership, judging it as a serial narrative, and looking at the period of highest sales and readerships, far more eyeballs have read Spider-Man as married and/or in a relationship with MJ than otherwise. Thanks to declining sales in comics, and the fact that emerging readers will inevitably look up the back catalogue and read the married issues, that number and gap will increase. Thanks to the current Pandemic, it might even be forever and for all time.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Edit - And yes, I do think Spidey's story can work without a definitive love interest because at its core his story is a coming of age epic about taking responsibility for your mistakes. While I love his various girlfriends, they are only window dressing to the overall narrative. They add flavor but are not vital, MJ included.
    I think a lot of this depends on how one views 616 continuity, and whether one sees Spider-man as a story that is serial or episodic. To me, Spider-man's story is the collection of events that culminated over the course of decades in 616. Not just the origin or the early years, but everything that transpired in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and so on makes up the larger tale of Spider-man. In that overarching story Mary Jane is second to the protagonist. Quite a bit of Spider-man's 616 narrative involves her progression and growth as a character as it intersects her relationship with Peter, and we see glimpses of his world through her POV. If you replaced her, you'd essentially be telling a different story. The same doesn't hold true for Gwen, Felicia, or even Aunt May. Gwen and May are (largely) passive supporting characters, and Felicia, though popular and interesting in her own right, is of little consequence in the grand scheme of the overarching narrative (which may be why she was excluded from Zdarsky's Life Story).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    I think a lot of this depends on how one views 616 continuity, and whether one sees Spider-man as a story that is serial or episodic. To me, Spider-man's story is the collection of events that culminated over the course of decades in 616. Not just the origin or the early years, but everything that transpired in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and so on makes up the larger tale of Spider-man. In that overarching story Mary Jane is second to the protagonist.
    And it was this overarching story that sustained Spider-Man as a monthly ongoing title in a time when Fantastic Four declined in sales and prestige, when the X-Men shot off like a rocket, when Daredevil got hot, Iron Man went on a bender, and Thor became a Frog. Spider-Man maintained its popularity and fame, as Marvel's most consistent ongoing in a context where none of that was inevitable or definite. /

    When we are talking about Spider-Man the comic character in 616 Continuity, and when people talk about "Spider-Man is Peter Parker" they are talking about "the story" and not really separating that story from Spider-Man's broader mass market iconography. Ultimately, what counts and defined Spider-Man's popularity as a comic as a serial story in 616, are the key running story bits. That was what sustained readership, kept old readers in, brought new readers and made them old readers in turn, and so on and so forth. So to define Spider-Man as a story in publication terms is to look at the consistent story threads, subplots and major emotional high points of the character, and the biggest is the love story with Peter/MJ. Ultimately, it wasn't the core concept of Spider-Man, the origin of AF#15, or "how he was introduced" that defined Spider-Man's success as an ongoing comic. It was the fact that his story had interest characters, drama, actual change and progress. Lee-Ditko's high school Spider-Man didn't sell as well as when he went to college, and Lee-Romita greatly expanded readership and the Mary Jane stories were absolutely a part of that.

    (which may be why she was excluded from Zdarsky's Life Story).
    You know aside from Peter, Mary Jane is the only character that appears in all 6 issues of LIFE STORY. Zdarsky based that on the publication history of Spider-Man over the last 6 decades.

    Go back to the first major AU story Spider-Man was in. SUPERMAN VS. THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. This comic was the coronation of Spider-Man, some 15 years after his debut he had become as big as Superman (which is a feat that no character since has repeated). It was also a huge major success, and an introduction for many 'civilians' to Spider-Man and was read by many non-comics people (Don King, the boxing promoter heard of this comic and that inspired him to do "Superman versus Muhammad Ali"). And at the end of that comic, Peter and MJ, Clark and Lois go on a double-date Guys and Dolls style.

  14. #44
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    LOL, Revolutionary_Jack your arguments make no sense and are (at times) contradictory, as others have pointed out. You say if the story was about Peter Parker none of us would be here I'll counter by saying if only Spidey was featured in the series far fewer people would care. Without civilian interactions on a personal level superhero stories are simply a boring power fantasy - a threat emerges, punch, kick, almost lose the battle, come back and win the battle, rinse and repeat.

    Edit- I've got nothing more to say except that your understanding of what constitutes an engaging narrative is deeply flawed.
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-12-2020 at 06:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    You say if the story was about Peter Parker none of us would be here I'll counter by saying if only Spidey was featured in the series far fewer people would care.
    Well take a look at the Japanese Supaidaman series and its great success. Again the major audience for Spider-Man is in merchandise and it's sold to an audience too small to care about or understand the story. Most people come know who Spider-Man is before they know he is Peter Parker. That is a basic empirical reality. Search your feelings, you know this to be true. Spider-Man as an icon has a transcendent value greater than his origins as Peter Parker. You can't simply conflate that with "the story of Peter Parker" and pretend that it's equivalent. It isn't.

    To talk about the story of Peter Parker and what's important and essential to the value of that story, is quite apart from whether "Spider-Man only needs [X] character, everyone else is negligible". Because to take that logic to the absolute extent, which is what I am doing, Peter Parker wouldn't meet that requirement.

    Without civilian interactions on a personal level superhero stories are simply a boring power fantasy
    And what can be more personal or intimate in terms of civilian interactions than a love story?

    Mary Jane is Marvel's biggest civlian character. Her and Peter are the only major superhero-civlian romance/marriage across Marvel history (Reed/Sue, Jean/Scott, Hank/Janet, T'Challa/Storm, Medusa/Black Bolt, Hawkeye/Mockingbird, Rogue/Gambit, Scott/Emma, Jean/Scott/Logan/Emma, Jessica/Luke). She's also in the top 10, or top 11 of female characters with most appearances in Marvel comics, and the only civilian. (Storm is #1 by the way). So one can argue that MJ strengthens and doubles down Peter's civilian connections than otherwise.

    Some people don't like numbers, they don't like statistics. But at the end of the day, the objective hard facts of number of appearances, is one of the few real indicators you can have in terms of "what readers are interested in", "what consistently maintains its popularity and replenishes its fanbase", and "what stories and characters writers have frequently returned to again and again". This is what really can tell you what's what in terms of "who is the most important character after Peter".

    All other arguments, "how Spider-Man was first introduced", "factory settings", "creator's vague intentions", that's basicaly subjective preferences masqueraded on shifting goalposts.

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