How much do you like MJ?

[NC_Yankee]

Well take a look at the Japanese Supaidaman series and its great success. Again the major audience for Spider-Man is in merchandise and it's sold to an audience too small to care about or understand the story. Most people come know who Spider-Man is before they know he is Peter Parker. That is a basic empirical reality. Search your feelings, you know this to be true. Spider-Man as an icon has a transcendent value greater than his origins as Peter Parker. You can't simply conflate that with "the story of Peter Parker" and pretend that it's equivalent. It isn't.

To talk about the story of Peter Parker and what's important and essential to the value of that story, is quite apart from whether "Spider-Man only needs [X] character, everyone else is negligible". Because to take that logic to the absolute extent, which is what I am doing, Peter Parker wouldn't meet that requirement.



And what can be more personal or intimate in terms of civilian interactions than a love story?

Mary Jane is Marvel's biggest civlian character. Her and Peter are the only major superhero-civlian romance/marriage across Marvel history (Reed/Sue, Jean/Scott, Hank/Janet, T'Challa/Storm, Medusa/Black Bolt, Hawkeye/Mockingbird, Rogue/Gambit, Scott/Emma, Jean/Scott/Logan/Emma, Jessica/Luke). She's also in the top 10, or top 11 of female characters with most appearances in Marvel comics, and the only civilian. (Storm is #1 by the way). So one can argue that MJ strengthens and doubles down Peter's civilian connections than otherwise.

Some people don't like numbers, they don't like statistics. But at the end of the day, the objective hard facts of number of appearances, is one of the few real indicators you can have in terms of "what readers are interested in", "what consistently maintains its popularity and replenishes its fanbase", and "what stories and characters writers have frequently returned to again and again". This is what really can tell you what's what in terms of "who is the most important character after Peter".

All other arguments, "how Spider-Man was first introduced", "factory settings", "creator's vague intentions", that's basicaly subjective preferences masqueraded on shifting goalposts.

Let’s be fair statistics can easily be manipulated. Simple example. If you are not successful 2 out of 3 times, you are a failure in life. But if you do it in baseball, you are a Hall of Famer (.333 career batting average). What makes MJ/Peter work is not the superhero/civilian relationship nor the amount of times she appears in a comic. What makes the relationship work is they are exact opposites. She is outgoing and vivacious, and he is more of a nerd who keeps things bottled up. I always go back to what Jarvis said during Spencer’s run. MJ is indispensable. What does he mean? While it is true that there are other people who can wear the webs ( such as Miles), no one does it better then Peter, and no one helps him with that job like MJ does.

[The tall man]

Let’s be fair statistics can easily be manipulated. Simple example. If you are not successful 2 out of 3 times, you are a failure in life. But if you do it in baseball, you are a Hall of Famer (.333 career batting average). What makes MJ/Peter work is not the superhero/civilian relationship nor the amount of times she appears in a comic. What makes the relationship work is they are exact opposites. She is outgoing and vivacious, and he is more of a nerd who keeps things bottled up. I always go back to what Jarvis said during Spencer’s run. MJ is indispensable. What does he mean? While it is true that there are other people who can wear the webs ( such as Miles), no one does it better then Peter, and no one helps him with that job like MJ does.

You make it seem like Peter is only a hero because of MJ, and that he would not be half as good if she wasn't around; that's a slap in the face to Peter. Peter was a selfless hero long before MJ even came into the picture, he did not need MJ for that and he won't be any less of a hero if she is gone. At the end of the day she is still a supporting character and very much dispensable. Any story that portrays Peter as ineffective or a quitter because of a lack of MJ is doing a disservice to the fundamental aspect of who Peter is. He is the guy who dedicated himself to helping others in honor of his beloved uncle, he is the guy who puts the needs of others before himself, he is the guy that will never stop helping people. The Peter MJ relationship is secondary to the heroics of Spider-man. I don't think there is a market for a relationship focus/driven Peter and MJ book. The heroics of Spider-man will always take precedence over the relationship drama of Peter and MJ.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You make it seem like Peter is only a hero because of MJ,

Well he's quoting Jarvis in Spencer's run, that she's indispensable.

...and that he would not be half as good if she wasn't around; that's a slap in the face to Peter.

A slap Peter would take on the cheek like a boss.

Any story that portrays Peter as ineffective or a quitter because of a lack of MJ is doing a disservice to the fundamental aspect of who Peter is.

Have you read Dan Slott's run or BND lately?

The Peter MJ relationship is secondary to the heroics of Spider-man.

As far as heroics of Spider-Man, everything is secondary to merchandise, where small kids playact scenarios with Spider-Man beating and making Iron Man and Batman and other toys bow down to him.

I don't think there is a market for a relationship focus/driven Peter and MJ book.

1) There's barely a market for books that focus on Peter Parker. Remember how little comic books actually sell.
2) There have in fact been books of that nature (Spider-Man loves Mary Jane, Renew Your Vows).

The most lucrative part of Spider-Man, the merchandise, is separate from the narrative of Peter Parker completely.

The heroics of Spider-man will always take precedence over the relationship drama of Peter and MJ.

By that logic, the heroics of Spider-Man will take precedence over any drama of Peter Parker, over Peter Parker even.

In so far as Peter Parker and his story and his personal life is at the center, then the supporting cast is important to give that meaning, and in that supporting cast, some figures are always going to be more equal than others.

[NC_Yankee]

You make it seem like Peter is only a hero because of MJ, and that he would not be half as good if she wasn't around; that's a slap in the face to Peter. Peter was a selfless hero long before MJ even came into the picture, he did not need MJ for that and he won't be any less of a hero if she is gone. At the end of the day she is still a supporting character and very much dispensable. Any story that portrays Peter as ineffective or a quitter because of a lack of MJ is doing a disservice to the fundamental aspect of who Peter is. He is the guy who dedicated himself to helping others in honor of his beloved uncle, he is the guy who puts the needs of others before himself, he is the guy that will never stop helping people The Peter MJ relationship is secondary to the heroics of Spider-man. I don't think there is a market for a relationship focus/driven Peter and MJ book. The heroics of Spider-man will always take precedence over the relationship drama of Peter and MJ.

I never claimed what you said, and you know I did not ( my all time favorite issue is ASM 33 (Pre-MJ). It is MJ simply makes Peter a lot better. You can look at Requiem, ASM 122, the Jarvis quote and many other examples down through the years. Look at Life Story when she knew it was Miles time to take over. It took her a long time to admit it, but she knows there is a need for a Spider-Man, and that knowledge, loyalty and her love is what keeps Peter grounded. Trust me Peter needs to be properly grounded, otherwise he could lose it ( think about what he did to Kingpin when he attacked Aunt May and that is just one notorious example).

[The tall man]

I never claimed what you said, and you know I did not ( my all time favorite issue is ASM 33 (Pre-MJ). It is MJ simply makes Peter a lot better. You can look at Requiem, ASM 122, the Jarvis quote and many other examples down through the years. Look at Life Story when she knew it was Miles time to take over. It took her a long time to admit it, but she knows there is a need for a Spider-Man, and that knowledge, loyalty and her love is what keeps Peter grounded. Trust me Peter needs to be properly grounded, otherwise he could lose it ( think about what he did to Kingpin when he attacked Aunt May and that is just one notorious example).

That was Jarvis's personal opinion because of his fondness for MJ. Peter doesn't need anyone to keep him grounded, he is capable of staying grounded himself. His upbringing, morality and selfless nature are his grounding points. And he his human so he is subject to emotional outbursts and a wide range of feelings both positive and negative. This grounding argument is the same one used by Lois fans who like to claim she keeps Clark/Superman grounded. As if the Kents, his values and upbringing doesn't matter. At the end of the day MJ can stay or go, but Peter should not be diminished or seen as lesser if she is not around. Peter can stand on his own two feet.

[NC_Yankee]

That was Jarvis's personal opinion because of his fondness for MJ. Peter doesn't need anyone to keep him grounded, he is capable of staying grounded himself. His upbringing, morality and selfless nature are his grounding points. And he his human so he is subject to emotional outbursts and a wide range of feelings both positive and negative. This grounding argument is the same one used by Lois fans who like to claim she keeps Clark/Superman grounded. As if the Kents, his values and upbringing doesn't matter. At the end of the day MJ can stay or go, but Peter should not be diminished or seen as lesser if she is not around. Peter can stand on his own two feet.

You just dismiss the Jarvis quote because you have no rebuttal for it. As for Peter being grounded, we saw just how grounded Peter was during Slott’s run ( which In my opinion, when coupled with OMD, it was the low point of his history ( Sins Past and Clone Saga included)). Here is something else. Even someone like Bruce Wayne needs Alfred. Someone who is far darker ( and for that matter wealthier) of a character then Peter. Yet, even he still needs someone he can turn to and trust. As far as Peter is concerned, ever since ASM 122 that person is MJ. Guess what? Despite Slott, Quesada, Wolfman, and the pro-Gwen or Felicia trolls, she is still there and will always be Peter’s soulmate.

[Lee]

And yes, I do think Spidey's story can work without a definitive love interest because at its core his story is a coming of age epic about taking responsibility for your mistakes. While I love his various girlfriends, they are only window dressing to the overall narrative. They add flavor but are not vital, MJ included.

I think having romance/relationships in the series is important, because it's a big part of being young and finding your place in the world. And it's just good soap opera to have these relationships that change, and to keep bringing new faces into the supporting cast. But having a single long term definitive love interest is detrimental, because then Peter is settling down and his life is becoming more comfortable, and the series becomes about something else.

I think some long term readers want to close the door on the coming of age story and see Peter settle down and have a more stable life and be more comfortable with himself. And that's why you see all these arguments that MJ is the best girlfriend for Peter, and she should always be around because Peter is better with her, and they're at their happiest together, and they're soulmates and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a duller direction for the character. I think it's better when Peter's life is messy, when he looks like a bit of a loser, when he's unsure and unsatisfied.

So when it comes to questions like this, about preferred love interests for Peter, I might be able to say that I enjoyed reading Character X as Peter's girlfriend more than Character Y, but when the question is "Who should Peter date now/next?" my answer is always going to be "Someone new!".

[Kevinroc]

I think having romance/relationships in the series is important, because it's a big part of being young and finding your place in the world. And it's just good soap opera to have these relationships that change, and to keep bringing new faces into the supporting cast. But having a single long term definitive love interest is detrimental, because then Peter is settling down and his life is becoming more comfortable, and the series becomes about something else.

I think some long term readers want to close the door on the coming of age story and see Peter settle down and have a more stable life and be more comfortable with himself. And that's why you see all these arguments that MJ is the best girlfriend for Peter, and she should always be around because Peter is better with her, and they're at their happiest together, and they're soulmates and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a duller direction for the character. I think it's better when Peter's life is messy, when he looks like a bit of a loser, when he's unsure and unsatisfied.

So when it comes to questions like this, about preferred love interests for Peter, I might be able to say that I enjoyed reading Character X as Peter's girlfriend more than Character Y, but when the question is "Who should Peter date now/next?" my answer is always going to be "Someone new!".

Serialized storytelling just doesn't work like that.

[Lee]

The kind that Marvel makes does. It’s all about keeping the plates spinning, with the knowledge that there will never be an end.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But having a single long term definitive love interest is detrimental, because then Peter is settling down and his life is becoming more comfortable, and the series becomes about something else.

Fundamentally, there's the fact that Peter as a character can never have too many love interests or girlfriends. He was never intended to be a ladies' man and womanizer type like Tony Stark, Wolverine, Johnny Storm and Daredevil.

The more new girlfriends you introduce and keep the character from growing up, the more Peter's gonna come across as a skirt-chaser as time passes.

Stan Lee himself realized this very early and that's why he believed that the stories needed to have, as he put it, "a heroine". Initially he believed Gwen could play that, but then accepted Mary Jane was the better choice.

The kind that Marvel makes does. It’s all about keeping the plates spinning, with the knowledge that there will never be an end.

We are all Armchair Editors here you know. Some of us speak with conviction and knowledge about "the kind that Marvel makes" too.

Serialized storytelling just doesn't work like that.

Testify.

[NC_Yankee]

I think having romance/relationships in the series is important, because it's a big part of being young and finding your place in the world. And it's just good soap opera to have these relationships that change, and to keep bringing new faces into the supporting cast. But having a single long term definitive love interest is detrimental, because then Peter is settling down and his life is becoming more comfortable, and the series becomes about something else.

I think some long term readers want to close the door on the coming of age story and see Peter settle down and have a more stable life and be more comfortable with himself. And that's why you see all these arguments that MJ is the best girlfriend for Peter, and she should always be around because Peter is better with her, and they're at their happiest together, and they're soulmates and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a duller direction for the character. I think it's better when Peter's life is messy, when he looks like a bit of a loser, when he's unsure and unsatisfied.

So when it comes to questions like this, about preferred love interests for Peter, I might be able to say that I enjoyed reading Character X as Peter's girlfriend more than Character Y, but when the question is "Who should Peter date now/next?" my answer is always going to be "Someone new!".

You must have loved Dan Slott’s run. I did not. For me one of the most important things in fiction is character growth. To see Peter in a fossilized state simply is not acceptable. No one expects perfection ( that was established in Amazing Fantasy 15), but the “Charlie Brown” comparison ( Dan Slott’s term not mine), is unacceptable as well. Personally speaking, I never liked Peanuts ( even as a small child) for the simple reason, is you knew Charlie Brown would fail and there is no hope for something better ( that was not only Peter but MJ and Felicia under Slott ( compare ASM 121 ( one of the two low points of his life) to ASM 122 ( a new beginning)). Even The Grinch and Scrooge had better fates then that. Beyond that, there are other teenage options ( Miles and Miguel) that are around ( especially Miles because of the success of Into The Spider-Verse) so there is no excuse in keeping Peter the Charlie Brown loser that Dan Slott wanted.

[Kevinroc]

The kind that Marvel makes does. It’s all about keeping the plates spinning, with the knowledge that there will never be an end.

I don't think you quite get what "keeping the plates spinning" means in the serialized world of super hero comics. Serialized super hero comics absolutely rely on their continuity to entertain readers. And I'm not just talking about the time Spider-Man and Silver Surfer teamed up to fight Carnage over 20 years ago (unless they want to specifically reference that story).

[Lee]

Fundamentally, there's the fact that Peter as a character can never have too many love interests or girlfriends. He was never intended to be a ladies' man and womanizer type like Tony Stark, Wolverine, Johnny Storm and Daredevil.

The more new girlfriends you introduce and keep the character from growing up, the more Peter's gonna come across as a skirt-chaser as time passes.

Stan Lee himself realized this very early and that's why he believed that the stories needed to have, as he put it, "a heroine".

That's only an issue if you try to look at decades of month-to-month comic publication history like it's a single novel.

A British or Australian style soap opera (less melodramatic than their American counterparts) might have a murder plot line every 7 or 10 years. If you take a step back and look at the full picture, it's crazy that a single street in the suburbs would have so many murders in 50 years.

By the same merit, how many times can The Shocker escape from jail? There's some real incompetence at play if Spider-Man has fought The Shocker 50 times in a decade.

In both cases, the audience is expected to go with the flow of the story currently being told, and it's a given that the majority of the audience haven't read/watched every issue/episode anyway.

If a new love interest enters Peter's life every 7 or 10 years of publication history, that's fine. If Peter is single and not dating anyone every now and again, that's fine too. If the audience follows the series for 7 to 10 years and there's only one or two girlfriends in his life, he's not going to look like a Casanova.

Initially he believed Gwen could play that, but then accepted Mary Jane was the better choice.

(Because Gwen was dead.)

We are all Armchair Editors here you know. Some of us speak with conviction and knowledge about "the kind that Marvel makes" too.

And you both know the story never ends. I think it's better to keep all the plates spinning. Keep every aspect of Peter's life messy and less than ideal.

[NC_Yankee]

The kind that Marvel makes does. It’s all about keeping the plates spinning, with the knowledge that there will never be an end.

Of course there is an end. Spider-Man Life Story and Requiem proved that.

[Lee]

Of course there is an end. Spider-Man Life Story and Requiem proved that.

I'm talking about the main universe Spider-Man.