How much do you like MJ?

[NC_Yankee]

I'm talking about the main universe Spider-Man.

Even in 616 an end is possible. How? Peter dies or retires with MJ, and Miles takes over. Why? Maybe Miles becomes more popular then Peter. As Revolutionary Jack pointed out it is the Spider-Man character ( more then Peter) that is profitable to Disney/Marvel. Maybe in 10 years, Miles outsells Amazing and the kids of tomorrow prefer Miles cartoons, toys and games to that of Peter. Is it probable? No but not out of the realm of possibility.

[Spider-Tiger]

(Because Gwen was dead.)

Let's not pretend like most characters that die in comics stay dead.

The kind that Marvel makes does. It’s all about keeping the plates spinning, with the knowledge that there will never be an end.

For decades 616 Spider-man's story involved real progression of its protagonist in a serial format. We saw Peter graduate high school, graduate college, experience his first love, the death of his love interest, marriage, etc. So you are going to have readers (new and old) invested in seeing that story continue in a similar fashion. I understand that the character progressed to a point that some at Marvel were uncomfortable with, but changing things to a more episodic Saturday morning cartoon format at this stage doesn't make a lot of sense. There are alternate universe books that can accomplish that type of storytelling.

Honestly, the whole current Marvel approach of change but stagnation is unsustainable. If they want their stories to employ continuity but for their characters to remain relatively stagnant, they should start using DC style continuity reboots.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Spider-Tiger;4968038]Let's not pretend like most characters that die in comics stay dead.



For decades 616 Spider-man's story involved real progression of its protagonist in a serial format. We saw Peter graduate high school, graduate college, experience his first love, the death of his love interest, marriage, etc. So you are going to have readers (new and old) invested in seeing that story continue in a similar fashion. I understand that the character progressed to a point that some at Marvel were uncomfortable with, but changing things to a more episodic Saturday morning cartoon format at this stage doesn't make a lot of sense. There are alternate universe books that can accomplish that type of storytelling.

Honestly, the whole current Marvel approach of change but stagnation is unsustainable. If they want their stories to employ continuity but for their characters to remain relatively stagnant, they should start using DC style continuity reboots.[/QUOTE
You are correct. I just read an article on CBR that Miles is being groomed to slowly take Peter’s place as the teenage Spider-Man. This is what I have favored for years. Peter as an adult and working ( Horizon Labs or Parker Industries), married to MJ and ( hopefully) with daughter Annie ( MJ birthing Annie or Annie moving from her Universe to 616 would work for me), and mentoring Miles, while Miles lives the teenage life like Peter did.This way you get character growth with both Peter and Miles.

[Lee]

Even in 616 an end is possible. How? Peter dies or retires with MJ, and Miles takes over. Why? Maybe Miles becomes more popular then Peter. As Revolutionary Jack pointed out it is the Spider-Man character ( more then Peter) that is profitable to Disney/Marvel. Maybe in 10 years, Miles outsells Amazing and the kids of tomorrow prefer Miles cartoons, toys and games to that of Peter. Is it probable? No but not out of the realm of possibility.

If Marvel ever plans on ending Peter Parker's stories, then it would be a good idea settle him down in a comfortable relationship as they wrap things up. But if he still potentially has 10, 20, 40, 80 more years of stories in him, then settling him down in a comfortable relationship now would be premature.

For decades 616 Spider-man's story involved real progression of its protagonist in a serial format. We saw Peter graduate high school, graduate college, experience his first love, the death of his love interest, marriage, etc. So you are going to have readers (new and old) invested in seeing that story continue in a similar fashion.

Yes. That's exactly what I said.

I understand that the character progressed to a point that some at Marvel were uncomfortable with, but changing things to a more episodic Saturday morning cartoon format at this stage doesn't make a lot of sense. There are alternate universe books that can accomplish that type of storytelling.

It's been like this for decades now, and it's worked for them so far. After a while they run out of milestones they can have without ageing all of their characters up - which is detrimental when they want to tell stories about Peter Parker for decades to comes, with no end in sight. Marvel has no desire to have a middle aged Peter Parker or a 25 year old Kamala Khan.

It's not controversial to say that there is no end in sight for these characters. It's a matter of fact.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That's only an issue if you try to look at decades of month-to-month comic publication history like it's a single novel.

And this is only a justification that works in the specific context where each and everyone of the following things is true
-- Comics are the primary exposure of the character to new readers. Already established that it's not. It's toys.
-- The internet with its easily accessible, easily digestible, and streamlined survey of information doesn't exist. It does.
-- The casual new reader is in fact the norm, and not the exception. Casual readers are in fact exceptions these days owing to the prohibitively high cost of comics now.

The fact is that the Comics continuity that exists today does indeed see the decades of month-to-month publication history like it's a single novel, or a single ongoing novel. And the fact of the matter is that every new editor/writer/artist markets/promotes/sells its story or presents its story as if it was.

You can't wish away the context of comics readership now any more than people are trying to wish this pandemic away.

(Because Gwen was dead.)

- She died because she was unpopular and expendable.
- She stayed dead because her memory, her ghost, her absence, was far more interesting than when she was alive.

Conway's entire run was a referendum on Gwen and Stan Lee went with how the readers voted.

And you both know the story never ends.

"Cattle die,
friends die,
and the same with you;
but I know of something that never dies
and that's a dead person's deeds."
-- Havamal, Gestaþáttr #77.

For decades 616 Spider-man's story involved real progression of its protagonist in a serial format. We saw Peter graduate high school, graduate college, experience his first love, the death of his love interest, marriage, etc. So you are going to have readers (new and old) invested in seeing that story continue in a similar fashion.

Especially because:
A) That period represents the foundational period of Spider-Man's publication history (Peter and MJ got married in 1987, 25 years after AF#15 was published).
B) The period of highest readership and sales of the comics.
C) Widely considered the most unified and classic period of Spider-Man.

The bright glorious chapter of Spider-Man's 616 history is never going to be Post-OMD. That much is clear. It's going to be the period that saw the character grow up, mature and get married.

Honestly, the whole current Marvel approach of change but stagnation is unsustainable. If they want their stories to employ continuity but for their characters to remain relatively stagnant, they should start using DC style continuity reboots.

Eventually they might, especially given the existential threat of the comics being shuttered altogether in the wake of this Pandemic.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Lee;4968089]If Marvel ever plans on ending Peter Parker's stories, then it would be a good idea settle him down in a comfortable relationship as they wrap things up. But if he still potentially has 10, 20, 40, 80 more years of stories in him, then settling him down in a comfortable relationship now would be premature.



Yes. That's exactly what I said.



It's been like this for decades now, and it's worked for them so far. After a while they run out of milestones they can have without ageing all of their characters up - which is detrimental when they want to tell stories about Peter Parker for decades to comes, with no end in sight. Marvel has no desire to have a middle aged Peter Parker or a 25 year old Kamala Khan.

It's not controversial to say that there is no end in sight for these characters. It's a matter of fact.[/QUOTE The days of teenage Peter are coming to an end. Why? I was reading a CBR article today about the future of Marvel and even they said Miles is gradually taking over for Peter as the teenaged Spider-Man. Does it mean Peter and his supporting cast go away? No but you can have him married to MJ and they can slowly grow old together. I mentioned before about Annie. You can have her in the comic either brought over from her Universe or as a baby. That dynamic worked well in Renew Your Vows. Norman Osborn going after Annie would be a compelling story, and I sure there would be many other possibilities. But Peter as the Dan Slott man-child should not be one of them.

[Celgress]

You are correct. I just read an article on CBR that Miles is being groomed to slowly take Peter’s place as the teenage Spider-Man. This is what I have favored for years. Peter as an adult and working ( Horizon Labs or Parker Industries), married to MJ and ( hopefully) with daughter Annie ( MJ birthing Annie or Annie moving from her Universe to 616 would work for me), and mentoring Miles, while Miles lives the teenage life like Peter did.This way you get character growth with both Peter and Miles.

As have I. Hopefully, those in the Marvel Office will inch towards this direction by allowing Peter to once more progress as a character. *crosses fingers & toes*

[Lee]

The last big milestone of Peter Parker's life was 33 years ago. And even that was removed from continuity 13 years ago.

I think it's clear that ship has sailed and we won't be seeing any more of those milestones. (Which, fortunately, synchs up with the lives of young people in 2020).

Peter was a high school senior for 3 years, in college for 13 years, and has been fumbling around his 20s (sometimes going back into education) for 42 years. There is no next stage of Peter Parker's life. This is it.

Given the reality of this - writing in the middle - I think it's best to keep things as fresh as possible by ensuring Peter's life is always messy, his love life ever turbulent, new characters coming and going.

The days of teenage Peter are coming to an end. Why? I was reading a CBR article today about the future of Marvel and even they said Miles is gradually taking over for Peter as the teenaged Spider-Man. Does it mean Peter and his supporting cast go away? No but you can have him married to MJ and they can slowly grow old together.

If Miles is 16, and is to be the teenage Spider-Man for the foreseeable future, then Peter and Mary Jane can grow exactly 3 years older than they are now.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think it's clear that ship has sailed and we won't be seeing any more of those milestones.

The fact is far more people will have seen those milestones than have read the comics since the end of that, and thanks to the fact that as time passes older comics will value mor re-reading than more recent ones, the number of people who read KLH for instance will always be greater than the ones who read New Ways to Die, let's say, that number will only go up.


The readership has not gone up with these new stunts.

[NC_Yankee]

The last big milestone of Peter Parker's life was 33 years ago. And even that was removed from continuity 13 years ago.

I think it's clear that ship has sailed and we won't be seeing any more of those milestones. (Which, fortunately, synchs up with the lives of young people in 2020).

Peter was a high school senior for 3 years, in college for 13 years, and has been fumbling around his 20s (sometimes going back into education) for 42 years. There is no next stage of Peter Parker's life. This is it.

Given the reality of this - writing in the middle - I think it's best to keep things as fresh as possible by ensuring Peter's life is always messy, his love life ever turbulent, new characters coming and going.



If Miles is 16, and is to be the teenage Spider-Man for the foreseeable future, then Peter and Mary Jane can grow exactly 3 years older than they are now.

That is not necessarily true. Spencer and ( or) future writers can decide to make Pete and MJ older ( based on Life Story, Renew Your Vows and other ideas that although not 616 are still canon and not fan fiction). But even if they are no older then 33, it beats Peter as a frat boy shacking up with Cindy and no MJ. Besides. a 30 year old Peter and MJ would work for me and many other people.

[Lee]

The fact is far more people will have seen those milestones than have read the comics since the end of that, and thanks to the fact that as time passes older comics will value mor re-reading than more recent ones, the number of people who read KLH for instance will always be greater than the ones who read New Ways to Die, let's say, that number will only go up.

The readership has not gone up with these new stunts.

I don't know what you want me to say. Some stories will have a longer shelf life than others. I imagine Spider-Verse and The Superior Spider-Man will have a longer shelf life than the issue where Peter graduated college.

I don't think Marvel is going to stack more "getting older" milestones on Peter Parker any time soon, considering they've kept him in his 20s for over 40 years now. I'm not asking you to like it, but that's how Marvel operates, and there are no signs that it's going to change any time soon.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Lee;4968398]I don't know what you want me to say. Some stories will have a longer shelf life than others. I imagine Spider-Verse and The Superior Spider-Man will have a longer shelf life than the issue where Peter graduated college.

I don't think Marvel is going to stack more "getting older" milestones on Peter Parker any time soon, considering they've kept him in his 20s for over 40 years now. I'm not asking you to like it, but that's how Marvel operates, and there are no signs that it's going to change any time soon.[/QUOTE
Superior Spider-Man has zero shelf life. How so? Doc Ock does not even have Anna Maria anymore, he is back to his old nasty ways, and there are so many better Ock issues it is not funny ( starting with the Master Planner Saga and I will throw in the Death of Captain Stacy those are comics with shelf life). Superior was another failed idea of Dan Slott’s that has not stuck. Do you know Slott’s best idea? Renéw Your Vows. That is his most popular idea.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't know what you want me to say.

Just that the value of the current status-quo is very little and trite in the grand scheme of things. It has not attracted or brought in new readers by any great size, nor will it do so if it continues with the same ideas and with the current Pandemic, it will likely remain that way. It's not serving as an introduction to Spider-Man, it's not true to the intentions of Lee and/or Ditko.

And it will remain a permanently controversial part of the Spider-Man publication history, and never be considered among its glorious moments.

I don't think Marvel

Marvel is not some sentient hive mind being. It's a corporation staffed by people. They will come and go as they have come and gone in the past, and will say and think and say different things at different times.

[Lee]

Just that the value of the current status-quo is very little and trite in the grand scheme of things. It has not attracted or brought in new readers by any great size, nor will it do so if it continues with the same ideas and with the current Pandemic, it will likely remain that way. It's not serving as an introduction to Spider-Man, it's not true to the intentions of Lee and/or Ditko.

And it will remain a permanently controversial part of the Spider-Man publication history, and never be considered among its glorious moments.

Regardless of your thoughts on the matter, Marvel Comics is going to continue to publish Spider-Man comics for as long as possible. I think it would keep things fresh to introduce a new love interest every now and again. You're free to disagree.

Marvel is not some sentient hive mind being. It's a corporation staffed by people. They will come and go as they have come and gone in the past, and will say and think and say different things at different times.

Actually, I think you'll find that Mr. Marv Marvel, founder the company, still approves every decision to this day.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Regardless of your thoughts on the matter, Marvel Comics is going to continue to publish Spider-Man comics for as long as possible. I think it would keep things fresh to introduce a new love interest every now and again.

The fact is that hasn't really been practised. Look at the issues before Spider-Man was married. Peter dated Betty Brant, followed by Gwen, and then MJ. When Marv Wolfman took over, he tried to hook up Peter with Betty Brant. Then after that O'Neill's run where Peter didn't seem to date anyone. And then Roger Stern came in and introduced the Black Cat romance, albeit it was then really picked up and elaborated by Bill Mantlo, hardly featuring at all in the main titles after that. Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz made MJ the central supporting character again (helped by Stern reintroducing her and establishing her backstory) and they set up major romantic tension between them again. And then Mantlo had Felicia and Peter break up (which didn't happen in ASM), only for them to get back together again (in PAD's run on Spectacular) as part of a long con with the Foreigner, returning in the main titles during Priest's brief ill-advised run after he fired Defalco, only for the breakup to happen again in Spectacular.

So already before the decision was made to marry Peter and MJ, writers still preferred to have Peter orbit in and out of established relationships, either with Betty (even if she was married, but that's Marv Wolfman logic for you), Felicia, MJ.

Again you are projecting some vague ideology over a reality where that was never observed or practised.