Thoughts on Bendis' Avengers

[Orbus]

It may have been because of the circumstances, but I think it still stands out and shows how the franchise has developed in surprising ways.

I think Millar's Ultimates run had more to do with thinking of the cinematic potential for The Avengers then Bendis' run, but even with that in mind the movies went for a more traditional take then the Ultimate version.

I'm sure that The Ultimates was just as much a selling point for studios. Clearly parts of Avengers 2012 is inspired by The Ultimates, it often felt like the movie was an Ultimates one but the characters personalities taken from the classic versions. Still I think part of that was seeing that work in Bendis' version.

In fact if they do another Avengers movie I actually would like to see it take inspiration for its roster from New Avengers. I'd love for Spider-Man to officially join the team and given that a lot of X-Men fans don't like Logan dominating their movies it'd be cool to have him in The Avengers instead in costume for the first time and with a bunch of other solo stars he'll play off them rather than overshadow them like he often did in the X movies. I'd love for acknowledgement of the Netflix series with Luke Cage as a member but I imagine that's unlikely and we'd get Black Panther instead alongside Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers

[Frontier]

I'm sure that The Ultimates was just as much a selling point for studios. Clearly parts of Avengers 2012 is inspired by The Ultimates, it often felt like the movie was an Ultimates one but the characters personalities taken from the classic versions. Still I think part of that was seeing that work in Bendis' version.

The alien invasion and Sam Jackson Fury was basically Ultimates, and I guess the major SHIELD role too, but otherwise I think that was it.

In fact if they do another Avengers movie I actually would like to see it take inspiration for its roster from New Avengers. I'd love for Spider-Man to officially join the team and given that a lot of X-Men fans don't like Logan dominating their movies it'd be cool to have him in The Avengers instead in costume for the first time and with a bunch of other solo stars he'll play off them rather than overshadow them like he often did in the X movies. I'd love for acknowledgement of the Netflix series with Luke Cage as a member but I imagine that's unlikely and we'd get Black Panther instead alongside Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers

I think the last thing MCU Spider-Man needs at this point is to be on an Avengers team. It hardly ever works out for him in the comics.

I think the New Avengers are probably going to be more like a Roger Stern/Kurt Busiek roster then Bendis' era what with all the available heroes currently existing or soon to be introduced into the MCU.

[Orbus]

The alien invasion and Sam Jackson Fury was basically Ultimates, and I guess the major SHIELD role too, but otherwise I think that was it.

There were specific moments they pulled from The Ultimates. Thor on the Kreisler building, Thor, Hulk and the Leviathan smashing in to Grand Central Station while different were clearly inspired similar moments in The Ultimates.

I think the last thing MCU Spider-Man needs at this point is to be on an Avengers team. It hardly ever works out for him in the comics.

How has being a member of the Avengers ever ended badly for comics Peter? I know some fans think that being a member of The Avengers is Marvel trying to say he needs them but it's always a faulty premise. Batman and Superman are members of the Justice League but no one argues that either of them need to be members of the Justice League either from an in-universe or commercially. Nothing bad has happened to the character creatively or commercially because he was an Avenger.

I think the New Avengers are probably going to be more like a Roger Stern/Kurt Busiek roster then Bendis' era what with all the available heroes currently existing or soon to be introduced into the MCU.

I don't see New Avengers as being an inspiration for any potential future Avengers movie - I suspect Logan will be kept for the X franchise when it eventually starts production but I do think they could do worse. Two of Marvel's most popular characters as 'proper' Avengers would be a huge selling as it was in the comics and it would go a long way to solve the problem of X-Men movies dominated by Wolverine and like I said he'd play well with the other established characters like Spidey just like he does in the comics.

[Frontier]

There were specific moments they pulled from The Ultimates. Thor on the Kreisler building, Thor, Hulk and the Leviathan smashing in to Grand Central Station while different were clearly inspired similar moments in The Ultimates.

Fair enough. I completely forgot about that stuff .

How has being a member of the Avengers ever ended badly for comics Peter? I know some fans think that being a member of The Avengers is Marvel trying to say he needs them but it's always a faulty premise. Batman and Superman are members of the Justice League but no one argues that either of them need to be members of the Justice League either from an in-universe or commercially. Nothing bad has happened to the character creatively or commercially because he was an Avenger.

Well, there was that time the Waid Avengers treated him like dirt and a bird pooped on him...

But in all seriousness I just don't think being an Avenger has ever been a creative high point for Peter when it's mostly just been him trading quips or annoying his team members and just being there as mostly a promotional tool.

I don't think it would be good from a character standpoint for MCU Peter at the point where he is at now other then to finally give him a chance to interact with heroes not named Tony Stark.

I don't see New Avengers as being an inspiration for any potential future Avengers movie - I suspect Logan will be kept for the X franchise when it eventually starts production but I do think they could do worse. Two of Marvel's most popular characters as 'proper' Avengers would be a huge selling as it was in the comics and it would go a long way to solve the problem of X-Men movies dominated by Wolverine and like I said he'd play well with the other established characters like Spidey just like he does in the comics.

Considering the movies have been able to get by without needing to poach characters from other franchises, I don't think there is as much of a need to make them actual Avengers members, especially when Avengers movies can turn into events that encapsulate more then just pure Avengers characters like Infinity War and Endgame did.

[Zero Hunter]

I stand by what I have always said about his run. It was lazy. He was given ALL the toys to play with like no other writer ever had in the history of Marvel. ANYONE could have sold the same numbers he did with all the A++++ characters he was allowed to use. He wanted Wolverine and Spider Man he got them. Character had a movie coming up he grabbed that character for his team. Bendis is the ultimate opportunist when it comes to grabbing on to whats hot.

[Alan2099]

I stand by what I have always said about his run. It was lazy. He was given ALL the toys to play with like no other writer ever had in the history of Marvel. ANYONE could have sold the same numbers he did with all the A++++ characters he was allowed to use. He wanted Wolverine and Spider Man he got them. Character had a movie coming up he grabbed that character for his team. Bendis is the ultimate opportunist when it comes to grabbing on to whats hot.

You get all the popular characters, Marvel hypes the hell out of the book, and all the events marvel does revolve around the team. You would have to be an absolute schmuck not to sell with that formula.

[XPac]

I stand by what I have always said about his run. It was lazy. He was given ALL the toys to play with like no other writer ever had in the history of Marvel. ANYONE could have sold the same numbers he did with all the A++++ characters he was allowed to use. He wanted Wolverine and Spider Man he got them. Character had a movie coming up he grabbed that character for his team. Bendis is the ultimate opportunist when it comes to grabbing on to whats hot.

The thing is, he sold well before he got Spiderman and Wolverine. Disassembled sold quite well. His Mighty and Dark Avengers book without those characters sold well too.

I don't disagree that he wasn't given the keys to the kingdom, but I'm not sure any other writer could replicate what he did at the time.

[Sutekh]

bendis seemed to want to make it clear that Sentry had mental problems, but what those problems were exactly seemed to change from issue to issue. There was never really a time you could get a clear idea of what Sentry was. It just felt like Bendis missed the whole idea of the character. He just wanted the biggest strongest guy around for various roles.

I read somewhere that he wanted someone to 'be the Thor' of the team, but couldn't get the actual Thor.

And yeah, his handling of mental illness, female characters, and, I dunno, humans? seems somewhere between disrespectful and 'what planet do you live on, that people act like this?'

[Frontier]

I read somewhere that he wanted someone to 'be the Thor' of the team, but couldn't get the actual Thor.

I don't think Bendis would have wanted the actual Thor. He's always admitted he struggles writing Asgardians, and it shows.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think the last thing MCU Spider-Man needs at this point is to be on an Avengers team. It hardly ever works out for him in the comics.

I think the problem with Spider-Man being an Avenger is that he is too anti-Establishment for the Avengers. He is a working-class guy who mocks authority. He has a strong sense of responsibility. He started out as a metaphor for youth independence. None of that meshes well with a narcissistic industrialist, a prince of Asgard, an elite scientist, or government agents.

However, you could argue none of this is true about MCU Spider-Man. As antithetical to Spider-Man as some fans might consider him, he could technically work as an Avenger.

[Cth]

The thing is, he sold well before he got Spiderman and Wolverine. Disassembled sold quite well. His Mighty and Dark Avengers book without those characters sold well too.

I don't disagree that he wasn't given the keys to the kingdom, but I'm not sure any other writer could replicate what he did at the time.

I liked his work, but there were some problems.

Notably, he would write six months in advance of everyone. He was a writing machine.. so continuity wise, he got to set the stage so to speak. Editors generally wouldn't correct it as that kind of work ethic is something they want. And from the Jemas days, story was more important than continuity.

Finally as someone stated, favoritism was a big problem.. he'd grab whoever was hot and write them how he wanted, which can create problems for other writers. Which can be a problem like when he had a SHIELD agent claim the Hulk killed a bunch of people outside the characters title, etc. On the other hand, it led to the Illuminati exiling him and Planet Hulk being written. But can you imagine if another writer had written Luke Cage as a wife beater in Doctor Strange? It changes something intrinsic to the character OUTSIDE of their book.

[XPac]

I think the problem with Spider-Man being an Avenger is that he is too anti-Establishment for the Avengers. He is a working-class guy who mocks authority. He has a strong sense of responsibility. He started out as a metaphor for youth independence. None of that meshes well with a narcissistic industrialist, a prince of Asgard, an elite scientist, or government agents.

However, you could argue none of this is true about MCU Spider-Man. As antithetical to Spider-Man as some fans might consider him, he could technically work as an Avenger.

I think it's fine to have a guy like Spider-Man who isn't a good fit on a team, because teams usually have at least one guy who isn't a good fit on a team. It's almost a thing you HAVE to have in the team formula.

Really, I think the biggest reason to not have Spider-Man on the Avengers is that he doesn't need it. He does just fine on his own. But in the Avengers we works just as well as plenty of other characters. He's a good enough hero and a good enough person. When you consider the history the team has with reformed criminals it's almost silly that people would give Spider-Man even slightest pause.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think it's fine to have a guy like Spider-Man who isn't a good fit on a team, because teams usually have at least one guy who isn't a good fit on a team. It's almost a thing you HAVE to have in the team formula.

Really, I think the biggest reason to not have Spider-Man on the Avengers is that he doesn't need it. He does just fine on his own. But in the Avengers we works just as well as plenty of other characters. He's a good enough hero and a good enough person. When you consider the history the team has with reformed criminals it's almost silly that people would give Spider-Man even slightest pause.

It would be more of a problem in Spider-Man stories than in Avengers stories. It's hard to have Spider-Man as an Avenger and still buy he would have conventional everyman problems or a bad media reputation.

I say "Avengers", but the problem is really with Iron Man and Captain America. Peter can't be around Tony for too long and still have it be believable he has the same financial problems as everyone else. And he can't be around Cap for too long without Jameson's negative publicity not impacting him as much.

He worked fine with most of the New Avengers. Luke Cage and Hawkeye have working-class roots. His interactions with Wolverine are fun to watch. Out of the original Avengers, he would probably relate with Hulk and Black Panther (the former due to the negative publicity, and the latter due to his connection with Anansi).

[XPac]

It would be more of a problem in Spider-Man stories than in Avengers stories. It's hard to have Spider-Man as an Avenger and still buy he would have conventional everyman problems or a bad media reputation.

I say "Avengers", but the problem is really with Iron Man and Captain America. Peter can't be around Tony for too long and still have it be believable he has the same financial problems as everyone else. And he can't be around Cap for too long without Jameson's negative publicity not impacting him as much.

He worked fine with most of the New Avengers. Luke Cage and Hawkeye have working-class roots. His interactions with Wolverine are fun to watch. Out of the original Avengers, he would probably relate with Hulk and Black Panther (the former due to the negative publicity, and the latter due to his connection with Anansi).

Timing is key for Spider-Man (or really any hero who has their own title while being in the Avengers). You do have to make sure that the solo status quo isn't harmed by whatever the status quo the Avengers are dealing with.

Spider-Man doesn't always have money problems. And the Avengers aren't always in a great financial situation. So it's possible for things to line up to the point where it's a non issue. But certainly if things don't like up then he shouldn't necessarily be on the took. And there are times that even applies to other Avengers like Thor. If what's going on in his own book conflicts with usage on the team, even he shouldn't be on it.

Spider-Man, and any character with their own book, does come with more baggage. Some degree of coodination with the main solo book should exist and that's more work than say a character like Tigra who likely isn't being used anywhere else.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Timing is key for Spider-Man (or really any hero who has their own title while being in the Avengers). You do have to make sure that the solo status quo isn't harmed by whatever the status quo the Avengers are dealing with.

Spider-Man doesn't always have money problems. And the Avengers aren't always in a great financial situation. So it's possible for things to line up to the point where it's a non issue. But certainly if things don't like up then he shouldn't necessarily be on the took. And there are times that even applies to other Avengers like Thor. If what's going on in his own book conflicts with usage on the team, even he shouldn't be on it.

Spider-Man, and any character with their own book, does come with more baggage. Some degree of coodination with the main solo book should exist and that's more work than say a character like Tigra who likely isn't being used anywhere else.

Money problems can range. I don't think he has to be broke like how some writers like to portray him, but a sense of economic anxiety should still be there like it is for a vast majority of people. For example, most people with above-average salaries and stable jobs still worry from time to time about things like medical costs and layoffs. It doesn't mean they are broke, just that it's inevitable to be completely free of those worries unless you're in the 1%.

Peter being on the same team as Tony can create the sense he is completely free of that economic anxiety, particularly since all versions of Tony have taken interest in Peter's smarts (including 616). There is no logical (or at least obvious) reason why Tony wouldn't bail out Peter in the worst of economic events, things that could happen to literally almost anyone. We are already seeing this brought up as one of the main complaints with MCU Spider-Man (people calling him a "trust-fund kid" and not an everyman). The roster can change, yes, but in the comics Tony will almost always be on the team.

All of this doesn't make it impossible to put Spider-Man and Iron Man on the same team in a believable way, but I think the writer(s) will have to make a strong argument for it.