Would you like to see Batwoman in another Team Book?

[Ascended]

Because "ShE's suPpoSeD tO bE IndEPenDent!" or something else nonsensical. Because working closely with others means she's not that, I guess?

Or maybe I just like having a character who comes from Gotham who doesn't answer to the god damn Batman.

Or maybe I prefer her as a solo act because she has a rich mythos and supporting cast and I would rather read about that than have her doing what Bruce tells her to or getting wrapped up in *his* bullsh*t instead of getting to drive her own narrative.

Or maybe I think that her character has become less interesting and entertaining as she's become more welcomed among the other Bats and I miss that independent streak.

Or maybe it's something else entirely. Something else "nonsensical" which apparently is just a d-baggy word for "this person doesn't have the same opinion I do, so that opinion must be wrong even though I don't really know anything about the basis of that opinion."

[Caivu]

I sorta like the X-Force-type idea Tynion had, but I also wouldn't want that unless whoever writes it actually does some research into how such a thing would actually operate and how someone with military experience would lead it.

Or maybe I just like having a character who comes from Gotham who doesn't answer to the god damn Batman.

Or maybe I prefer her as a solo act because she has a rich mythos and supporting cast and I would rather read about that than have her doing what Bruce tells her to or getting wrapped up in *his* bullsh*t instead of getting to drive her own narrative.

Or maybe I think that her character has become less interesting and entertaining as she's become more welcomed among the other Bats and I miss that independent streak.

Not a single one of these things has changed or gone away due her being closer to them. She doesn't answer to Batman, and she's still independent, both narratively and in-universe (she's not bankrolled by him, she still doesn't keep lockstep with his code, etc). I don't understand what you're using as evidence for these positions. I'd be interested in seeing on-panel support for what you're talking about, but I honestly don't know what it could be.

[Ascended]

What's wrong with Kate being close to the rest of the bats?

Well someone else thought they could answer for me despite not knowing what my opinion is (which is super douche-y), but I realize I didn't actually reply.

On the surface, there's nothing wrong with Kate being close to the rest of the Bats, and I actually enjoy her dynamic with Bruce; she seems like one of the few who will call him out on his bullsh*t on a regular basis. Everyone else gets a story here or there where they disagree with him, but Kate is one of the few who seem to stand up to him regularly.

But I'm not really a huge fan of Bruce these days. He's become an unbearable prick who demands complete obedience from anyone who operates in Gotham. It's not doing anyone any favors, especially the characters who have their own mythos built, like Kate and Dick. I like the idea of someone giving him the finger and doing things their own way. I'd rather Kate and Dick visit the mansion for holidays or show up to bail Bruce out when he gets in over his head, but otherwise not subjugate themselves to his abusive BS "my way or the highway" behavior.

It's not that I want Kate to be "independent" so much as I don't want Bruce adding another soldier to his private war (or even getting panel time). And while Kate *could* be close to the Bats and still do her own thing against his wishes, I don't trust DC to maintain that balance and tension without driving it into extremes. They'd either end up at directly at odds with each other, trading punches, or she'd end up taking his orders. I don't want either. So, lacking much faith in DC, I'd rather see Kate on her own or with a team that isn't made up of Bruce's sidekicks.

I'd actually like to see Kate with the JSA. I think she'd be a good fit there, though I'd definitely want a solo book as well.

I was going to reply with my opinion but I wonÂ’t because, quite frankly, itÂ’s impossible to have an actual discussion about Kate on this forum rather than an argument. This has nothing to do with you, Protege.

Ain't that the truth. I've noticed there's some posters who seem to think their opinion of Kate is the only valid one, and it does not engender conversation.

[The tall man]

Well someone else thought they could answer for me despite not knowing what my opinion is (which is super douche-y), but I realize I didn't actually reply.

On the surface, there's nothing wrong with Kate being close to the rest of the Bats, and I actually enjoy her dynamic with Bruce; she seems like one of the few who will call him out on his bullsh*t on a regular basis. Everyone else gets a story here or there where they disagree with him, but Kate is one of the few who seem to stand up to him regularly.

But I'm not really a huge fan of Bruce these days. He's become an unbearable prick who demands complete obedience from anyone who operates in Gotham. It's not doing anyone any favors, especially the characters who have their own mythos built, like Kate and Dick. I like the idea of someone giving him the finger and doing things their own way. I'd rather Kate and Dick visit the mansion for holidays or show up to bail Bruce out when he gets in over his head, but otherwise not subjugate themselves to his abusive BS "my way or the highway" behavior.

It's not that I want Kate to be "independent" so much as I don't want Bruce adding another soldier to his private war (or even getting panel time). And while Kate *could* be close to the Bats and still do her own thing against his wishes, I don't trust DC to maintain that balance and tension without driving it into extremes. They'd either end up at directly at odds with each other, trading punches, or she'd end up taking his orders. I don't want either. So, lacking much faith in DC, I'd rather see Kate on her own or with a team that isn't made up of Bruce's sidekicks.

I'd actually like to see Kate with the JSA. I think she'd be a good fit there, though I'd definitely want a solo book as well.



Ain't that the truth. I've noticed there's some posters who seem to think their opinion of Kate is the only valid one, and it does not engender conversation.

Well kate can do all of that. She can tell Bruce to f**k off, she can give him the finger, she can think he's full of ****. But know what she can also do, she can take that Bat Symbol off her chest. She wants complete and total independence then how about she cut all ties with anything Bat related. But she won't because if she did she would have no relevance, she would be another Mother Panic.

[Ascended]

There's her relationship with Bruce, and then there's the symbol the Bat has become for the people of Gotham. I don't blame Kate for using the symbol, it inspired her too. The Bat is what gave her purpose after West Point, and I wouldn't want to see her give that up.

Not to mention all the business reasons for keeping the bat on her costume.

[Caivu]

Thank you for the answer, Ascended. I can at least see where you're coming from now.

But I'm not really a huge fan of Bruce these days. He's become an unbearable prick who demands complete obedience from anyone who operates in Gotham. It's not doing anyone any favors, especially the characters who have their own mythos built, like Kate and Dick. I like the idea of someone giving him the finger and doing things their own way.

It's not that I want Kate to be "independent" so much as I don't want Bruce adding another soldier to his private war (or even getting panel time). And while Kate *could* be close to the Bats and still do her own thing against his wishes, I don't trust DC to maintain that balance and tension without driving it into extremes.

The bold here is what I'm mostly still taking issue with. You're making it sound like you think Kate's primary (or even only) purpose is to be some kind of rebel who doggedly resists doing things Bruce's way for some reason. Like she can't ever agree with him or their goals can't ever overlap. Is that what you're meaning to say?

[Bat-Meal]

The way this conversation is going, I'm just gonna post these images here, and let the panels do the talking:

GothamCityMonstersRecruited.jpg

GothamCityMonstersSymbol.jpg

[Edit] If those images are too blurry, try here: https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/8677873.html#cutid1

[Ascended]

The bold here is what I'm mostly still taking issue with. You're making it sound like you think Kate's primary (or even only) purpose is to be some kind of rebel who doggedly resists doing things Bruce's way for some reason. Like she can't ever agree with him or their goals can't ever overlap. Is that what you're meaning to say?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I think I said earlier that I'm fine with Kate having a relationship with Bruce. What I *don't* want is for Kate to become another soldier in Bruce's war.

You know how Nightwing is no longer his own hero who happens to have ties to Bruce, and has instead become (for all intent and purpose) a sidekick who just happens to have a solo title? Most of Dick's major story beats in recent years have stemmed directly from Bruce or been dependent on him in one way or another. That's what I *don't* want happening to Kate. At one point Dick had a growing and rich mythology of his own, and while he was still a Bat he was also *more* than just a Robin. That's no longer the case, and that's the fate I'd rather see Kate avoid.

It's not that I want Kate completely removed from Bruce, it's that I don't have enough faith in DC to have her involved with Bruce without going overboard and turning her into a sidekick.

[SiegePerilous02]

Voted for Gotham City Monsters. I have not read it yet, but I do intend to at some point, and it seems like a nice mix of characters for her to be around. She works better in a supernatural setting- the other Gotham heroes dabble in it, but the spooky occult stuff is neat and a good niche for her. Also, when it doubt, she could be added to the Birds of Prey if they do another relaunch.

As for the Bruce stuff...I'd rather they not be related and she not be a regular part of the Bat-Family. Nothing after Williams and Blackman left has held my interest for too long. I'd love another solo series for her that just goes back to the Rucka/Williams III stories with more focus on the occult fringe of Gotham, and also gives Bette more stuff to do. Has she been sighted any time recently or is she in limbo? I know she was stated to be at West Point or something, but that seems like a hand waive to get her out of the picture.

[Bat-Meal]

It's not that I want Kate completely removed from Bruce, it's that I don't have enough faith in DC to have her involved with Bruce without going overboard and turning her into a sidekick.

Well said, I don't want Kate to become a sidekick either. They are family and peers - the power dynamic should be respectful and neither parental or subordinate.

The age gap isn't big enough for Bruce to treat her like he does his sidekicks (in the comics, TV series is a different matter if he ever appears), and she is more than an acquaintance so she feels comfortable speaking back if appropriate.

[Factor]

What about Justice League Dark?
I like that the supernatural is her niche in the bat family, so it could make sense to have her on the magic team, as a bit of an outsider.
It would also be nice to see her teaming up with Wonder Woman again I'll always have fond memories of the BW/WW team-up drawn by JH Williams III.
The only downside to that is that I wouldn't want ANY Bat-character clogging too much panel time from the rest of the team, which is always a problem when it comes to Bats and the League.

[WonderNight]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I think I said earlier that I'm fine with Kate having a relationship with Bruce. What I *don't* want is for Kate to become another soldier in Bruce's war.

You know how Nightwing is no longer his own hero who happens to have ties to Bruce, and has instead become (for all intent and purpose) a sidekick who just happens to have a solo title? Most of Dick's major story beats in recent years have stemmed directly from Bruce or been dependent on him in one way or another. That's what I *don't* want happening to Kate. At one point Dick had a growing and rich mythology of his own, and while he was still a Bat he was also *more* than just a Robin. That's no longer the case, and that's the fate I'd rather see Kate avoid.

It's not that I want Kate completely removed from Bruce, it's that I don't have enough faith in DC to have her involved with Bruce without going overboard and turning her into a sidekick.

Dude reading your post about dick brings tears to my eyes, damn you DC!

[bretmaverick2]

Outsiders is Jeff's team to lead. If she wants to join the team fine but Jeff should not be pushed aside for Kate to take over. Besides it seems that the supernatural is her particular forte, so a team focused on that would suit her best.

I think Jeff Pierce creator Tony Isabella might prefer BL be out of the Outsiders based on his recent rant online against DC.

[Ascended]

I'm pretty sure Isabella would rather Jeff be at a completely different company.

[Flash Gordon]

Shadowpact/Justice League Dark