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  1. #121
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    The Gwen clone from Spectacular Spider Man Annual #8 is still walking around the MU. They should have her be the one that slept with Norman.
    Last edited by shooshoomanjoe; 09-18-2020 at 10:38 PM.

  2. #122
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    The Gwen clone from Spectacular Spider Man Annual #8 is still walking around the MU. They should have her be the one that slept with Norman.
    Joyce Delaney "died" in Spider-Island: Deadly Foes.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Joyce Delaney "died" in Spider-Island: Deadly Foes.
    Either way, they should retcon her being the mother of the Grey Goblin.

  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    Either way, they should retcon her being the mother of the Grey Goblin.
    I agree with you. It is distasteful, furthermore, it tarnishes the original story "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". The entire purpose of that tale was that Green Goblin (indirectly) caused the death of someone Peter cared about deeply simply because Peter cared about them deeply, no motivation aside from spite on Osborn's part was required. Before the Spider Office of the day settled on Gwen they bantered around several other names including Aunt May and even J. Jonah Jameson (imagine that)! "Sins Past" subtracts from the narrative of "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" by adding unnecessary layers, and worse yet, by implying the sacrificial narrative victim sort of "had it coming".
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I agree with you. It is distasteful, furthermore, it tarnishes the original story "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". The entire purpose of that tale was that Green Goblin (indirectly) caused the death of someone Peter cared about deeply simply because Peter cared about them deeply, no motivation aside from spite on Osborn's part was required. Before the Spider Office of the day settled on Gwen they bantered around several other names including Aunt May and even J. Jonah Jameson (imagine that)! "Sins Past" subtracts from the narrative of "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" by adding unnecessary layers, and worse yet, by implying the sacrificial narrative victim sort of "had it coming".
    "Indirectly"?

    While you probably didn't mean anything by it, it always annoys me whenever people imply that Peter is more to blame for Gwen's death than GG is.

  6. #126
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    "Indirectly"?

    While you probably didn't mean anything by it, it always annoys me whenever people imply that Peter is more to blame for Gwen's death than GG is.
    In terms of the actual killing of Gwen Stacy, Norman is responsible. He rammed her body off the bridge with his glider, dropping her from a height, with the fall killing her.

    Gwen Snap Spidey 6 - Goblin rams Gwen off bridge.jpg

    Gwen Snap Spidey 7 - Goblin-Peter 'Dead-You killed her'.jpg

    Peter's responsible for Gwen's death to the extent that he
    A) Knew Norman was Goblin,
    B) Didn't expose and turn him in when he had the chance, back in ASM#40.
    C) Didn't do it again when he relapsed in ASM#96-98, and Peter got a second chance to do it.

    Keeping Norman in civilian company, even by the logic of the reason in the original story (wanting to help Harry), can definitely be blamed on Peter. He endangered everyone he knew by doing that. To that extent, Peter does deserve blame for Gwen's death. But only in that instant.

  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    "Indirectly"?

    While you probably didn't mean anything by it, it always annoys me whenever people imply that Peter is more to blame for Gwen's death than GG is.
    Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it in that way. I've stated before (on this very forum) I think Norman is 100% responsible for Gwen's untimely demise but people have jumped all over me for doing so, ironic, no? lol Here is an outline of my reasoning process of why Norman, and Norman alone, is legally and morally guilty, rather than Peter -

    If a criminal pushes a person in front of an oncoming subway train due to malice then a well-meaning cop tries to pull them to safety, only for them to be electrocuted by accidental contact with the third-rail, the criminal is (obviously) to blame for their death, not the cop. The criminal's actions started the deadly chain of events, putting it another way, the person was placed in mortal danger as a direct result of the initial shove.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #128
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In terms of the actual killing of Gwen Stacy, Norman is responsible. He rammed her body off the bridge with his glider, dropping her from a height, with the fall killing her.

    Gwen Snap Spidey 6 - Goblin rams Gwen off bridge.jpg

    Gwen Snap Spidey 7 - Goblin-Peter 'Dead-You killed her'.jpg

    Peter's responsible for Gwen's death to the extent that he
    A) Knew Norman was Goblin,
    B) Didn't expose and turn him in when he had the chance, back in ASM#40.
    C) Didn't do it again when he relapsed in ASM#96-98, and Peter got a second chance to do it.

    Keeping Norman in civilian company, even by the logic of the reason in the original story (wanting to help Harry), can definitely be blamed on Peter. He endangered everyone he knew by doing that. To that extent, Peter does deserve blame for Gwen's death. But only in that instant.
    Man the amnesia plot point hasn't aged well. By the way, does Norman still is unaware that Peter is Spider-Man or the spell is still working on him.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
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  9. #129
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Man the amnesia plot point hasn't aged well. By the way, does Norman still is unaware that Peter is Spider-Man or the spell is still working on him.
    No, Norman remembers again, thanks to kidnapping Jameson after Peter unmasked to Jameson and Jameson accidentally blurting out a major clue while boasting that nothing Norman did would break Spider-Man, not even killing the woman he loved. Cue Go Down Swinging, Dan Slott's swan song on Spider-Man.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    No, Norman remembers again, thanks to kidnapping Jameson after Peter unmasked to Jameson and Jameson accidentally blurting out a major clue while boasting that nothing Norman did would break Spider-Man, not even killing the woman he loved. Cue Go Down Swinging, Dan Slott's swan song on Spider-Man.
    Thanks, some day i migth get around finishing that run, i will need to bite the bullet at some point.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  11. #131
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Thanks, some day i migth get around finishing that run, i will need to bite the bullet at some point.
    You're welcome. I'd recommend either Worldwide Vol. 9 or the Red Goblin collection.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #132
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Thanks, some day i migth get around finishing that run, i will need to bite the bullet at some point.
    At least it's a bullet coated in candy (Immonen).

    BTW, I would go one step forward in blaming Peter. He had three opportunities to finish the Goblin business (Spectacular Spider-man Magazine 2 is also earth 616) and he kept this information from his loved ones, not just Gwen. In essence, he took from them the option to protect themselves, with the excuse that revealing his identity would endanger others.

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