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  1. #91
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    I kind of like Sins Past. It's not totally unbelievable that Norman could have slept with Gwen. It makes the Gwen period more interesting, in a way. Of course, such huge retcons 30+ years later are bullshit. The accelerated aging of the kids is stupid. It's a stupid story, don't get me wrong. But a lot of people's first point when criticising the story is that Gwen would never do that. I happen to think she probably would. That one aspect of it makes sense to me.

    OMD destroyed Spider-Man. There's no going back from it. It took me a long time to realise it. It's just a different guy. I started reading in 1977 - some breaks, but I read everything from that year onwards one way or another. I kept reading with Slott, though I hated a lot of it. But I loved Superior. That's about it. After Superior, it was genuinely awful, but I waited for him to go. And then the next guy, Nick whatever, it's the same tone. Better stories, but it's the Slott version of Spidey in them, for sure. Not for me. I'm sure there are people who read these stories and like it, but if they ever read e.g. Stern/Romita Jr issues it must be obvious that was a different character. That guy is dead now. Dead in so many ways.

  2. #92
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_E_88 View Post
    What do you guys think?
    I'd say Sins Past.

    As for the first question, "which one is worst?" People rate the Straczynski-written issue of OMD above any of the six issues in Sins Past (2.64/5 vs. 1.91-2.30). It's not much of a difference, but I haven't found a specific poll.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by esskay View Post
    I kind of like Sins Past. It's not totally unbelievable that Norman could have slept with Gwen. It makes the Gwen period more interesting, in a way. Of course, such huge retcons 30+ years later are bullshit. The accelerated aging of the kids is stupid. It's a stupid story, don't get me wrong. But a lot of people's first point when criticising the story is that Gwen would never do that. I happen to think she probably would. That one aspect of it makes sense to me.

    OMD destroyed Spider-Man. There's no going back from it. It took me a long time to realise it. It's just a different guy. I started reading in 1977 - some breaks, but I read everything from that year onwards one way or another. I kept reading with Slott, though I hated a lot of it. But I loved Superior. That's about it. After Superior, it was genuinely awful, but I waited for him to go. And then the next guy, Nick whatever, it's the same tone. Better stories, but it's the Slott version of Spidey in them, for sure. Not for me. I'm sure there are people who read these stories and like it, but if they ever read e.g. Stern/Romita Jr issues it must be obvious that was a different character. That guy is dead now. Dead in so many ways.
    "It made sense for Gwen to sleep with Norman?" Are you serious?! If it was Harry, it could've been tolerable, but nope!

    As for Slott, I think most people hated how "normal" everything felt.
    Last edited by PCN24454; 09-15-2020 at 09:02 AM.

  4. #94
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Sin of Past doesn't bother me as much as other people, mainly because i don't care about Gwen very much (althought strangely enougth i could buy Dikto Gwen sleeping with Norman), but at the same time, is kind of mean spirit to the relationship and the fans of it, so i definetly would rather not have it in canon, as an elseworld it could be cool, if they take away the whole rapid aging thing.

    OMD effects are still felt in the book, even with Spencer correcting some stuff, so that is definetly worse for me.
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  5. #95
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    Both are terrible. But Sins has been largely ignored while OMD repercussions are still felt to this day

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    "It made sense for Gwen to sleep with Norman?" Are you serious?! If it was Harry, it could've tolerable, but nope!

    As for Slott, I think most people hated how "normal" everything felt.
    My thoughts exactly. If a person doesn't like 616 Gwen fine but her willingly sleeping with Norman Osborn, much less having a romantic relationship with him, is still OOC AF for her character. There is no need to demonize her.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  7. #97
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    How does it demonize a woman if she sleeps with someone? Its not as if Gwen would have known Norman was the Green Goblin. The age difference is icky, but its also no different from what Hugh Hefner and a host of rich old dudes and young hot girls have done.
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  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    How does it demonize a woman if she sleeps with someone? Its not as if Gwen would have known Norman was the Green Goblin. The age difference is icky, but its also no different from what Hugh Hefner and a host of rich old dudes and young hot girls have done.
    Because he is the father of one of her friend's Harry plus she was involved romantically with Peter at the time. Those two things are how it demonizes her character.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #99
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Not to mention that she was close with Harry for quite long, so she sure knew what a "great guy" Mr. Osborn was; even if his secret identity was unknown, to go that road (down infidelity way) in such company, certainly vilifies someone. Not so sure about the demon part.

  10. #100
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Not to mention that she was close with Harry for quite long, so she sure knew what a "great guy" Mr. Osborn was; even if his secret identity was unknown, to go that road (down infidelity way) in such company, certainly vilifies someone. Not so sure about the demon part.
    Technically, "demonize" is another word for "vilify." Beyond that, yeah, Sins Past was bad from a perspective of damaging or tainting Gwen's character, but One More Day damaged and stained the whole Spider-Man lore by having him betray his principle of "with great power, there must also come great responsibility" just so he wouldn't have to face up to an unintended consequence of publicly exposing his identity, namely Aunt May dying from a bullet meant for him. That's much harder to get past, because everything proceeding from One More Day is the product of a literal Faustian bargain (deal with the Devil, or the in-universe equivalent of such) altering Peter's personal history (and maybe reality), made so he wouldn't have to take responsibility for what his error in judgment had wrought upon him and his loved ones. OMD said, "This is Spider-Man going forward, this is our mission statement of what the character is and should be." That's a lot more fundamentally damaging than Sins Past, which has since gone on to be ignored and unreferenced, even when it should have been addressed.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Technically, "demonize" is another word for "vilify." Beyond that, yeah, Sins Past was bad from a perspective of damaging or tainting Gwen's character, but One More Day damaged and stained the whole Spider-Man lore by having him betray his principle of "with great power, there must also come great responsibility" just so he wouldn't have to face up to an unintended consequence of publicly exposing his identity, namely Aunt May dying from a bullet meant for him. That's much harder to get past, because everything proceeding from One More Day is the product of a literal Faustian bargain (deal with the Devil, or the in-universe equivalent of such) altering Peter's personal history (and maybe reality), made so he wouldn't have to take responsibility for what his error in judgment had wrought upon him and his loved ones. OMD said, "This is Spider-Man going forward, this is our mission statement of what the character is and should be." That's a lot more fundamentally damaging than Sins Past, which has since gone on to be ignored and unreferenced, even when it should have been addressed.
    I agree with you completely. And, yeah, I meant the word in that context. My comments were directed at those who stated it was no big deal 616 Gwen would do something like that rather than proving that Sins is worse than OMD, nothing is worse than OMD (for the reason you so effectively outlined along with several others), IMO.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #102
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Technically, "demonize" is another word for "vilify." Beyond that, yeah, Sins Past was bad from a perspective of damaging or tainting Gwen's character, but One More Day damaged and stained the whole Spider-Man lore by having him betray his principle of "with great power, there must also come great responsibility" just so he wouldn't have to face up to an unintended consequence of publicly exposing his identity, namely Aunt May dying from a bullet meant for him. That's much harder to get past, because everything proceeding from One More Day is the product of a literal Faustian bargain (deal with the Devil, or the in-universe equivalent of such) altering Peter's personal history (and maybe reality), made so he wouldn't have to take responsibility for what his error in judgment had wrought upon him and his loved ones. OMD said, "This is Spider-Man going forward, this is our mission statement of what the character is and should be." That's a lot more fundamentally damaging than Sins Past, which has since gone on to be ignored and unreferenced, even when it should have been addressed.
    OMD is more damaging to Peter, but the thing is I like Gwen better.

  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    OMD is more damaging to Peter, but the thing is I like Gwen better.
    Speaking of which, I do notice that those who say Gwen would do such a thing typically admit they've never cared for her character. I don't like Aunt May, for example, but if someone wrote a story in which she turned on Peter and became a supervillain without mental alteration or something I'd still cry foul because May is acting OOC.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #104
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Speaking of which, I do notice that those who say Gwen would do such a thing typically admit they've never cared for her character. I don't like Aunt May, for example, but if someone wrote a story in which she turned on Peter and became a supervillain without mental alteration or something I'd still cry foul because May is acting OOC.
    Well yeah, that's not really a surprise, i'm pretty sure that there was a good amount of fans that didn't care that Reilly came back as a villain and were perfectly fine with his role in CC. If someone doesn't care about a characther, chances are that they aren't gonna be worried about consistency.
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  15. #105
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
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    A week ago i decided to reread Amazing Spider-Man. I decided the JMS era was a decent starting point and should keep me busy until this Kindred thing is revealed. I just finished Sin Past yesterday and i had strong feelings before because i thought "wow Gwen sucks." But having read it again with a clear mind and actually reading it without raging, i must say that Sin Past is a mess. Gwen's motivation is a steaming pile of trash sitting in the sun on a hundred degree day. "he was vulnerable." Who gives a damn if Norman was vulnerable. So your answer to an old ass man with rage tendencies is to sleep with him? Refresh my memory... would this have happened before or after George died?

    Even if Gwen was grieving her own fathers death, banging your best friends father behind your boyfriends back is just so many levels of trash. I never liked Gwen to begin with. I always find that damsel in distress "woe is me i am so codependent" to be insanely annoying. It's the same reason i hated Aunt May until JMS actually evolved her. But Sins Past is trash.

    One More Day blows too for the sheer stupidity of "Mephisto needs to remove the marriage so an old ass woman can live" is just as bad but Sin Past takes the case.

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