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  1. #31

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    OMD is much worse. Sins Past is terrible but it can be either ignored or fixed. There is no fixing OMD. OMD was broken from the beginning.

  2. #32
    Incredible Member Haquim's Avatar
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    Sins Past is worse (by a short margin though). It changes the meaning of Peter and Gwen's relationship and lessens the impact of one of the greatest spider-man's stories ever told. I'm a MJ fan but what Sins Past did to Gwen is unforgivable.

    OMD is Quesadaphisto erasing developments for a flawed and moronic reason ("we need Peter to forever be a 16 years old character! That would make him relatable!")

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    Which is still the dumbest load of crap i have ever heard - especially by towards standards.

    Take a look at Instagram. You have a load of "influencers" who range from average to great to extremely freaking hot. A lot of those women have average looking boyfriends and children at ages that range from 18-30. A lot of them are super famous and some of them are just there.

    Let me take it even further. I live in Rego Park/Forest Hills Queens. The area I live in has a huge demographic of Georgian Jews and Bukharian Jews (from Uzbekistan.) 95% of the people I went to school with graduated high school by the age of 16-18, went on to college, got married and had children by the time they were 22-25 years of age. So Quesada's reasoning is just the dumbest thing i have ever heard.
    Sadly Quasada isn't alone in that way of thinking, former DC co-publisher Dan DiBio is also the same way after Batwoman purposed to her girlfriend, a decision that the editors on the book agreed too DiBio over-ruled and stated that all DC heroes couldn't get married this screwed up Aquaman because to have Queen Mera be a queen they had to be married. DiBio thought of the DC heroes as first responders and didn't think it was right for them to have families because it wasn't fair to their wives and husbands. Never mind that IMHO is disrespectful to the families of are plenty of cops, firefighters, doctors, active military and so on who go in to these relationship well aware of what is expected, and the irony of all this Batwoman's girlfriend who she wanted to marry was a cop. He also thought it aged the characters up as well.

    I stopped enjoying reading Spider-Man after Sins Past because it didn't do any of the characters any damn good, and soured me on JMS as a writer for superheroes even though I had enjoyed his work on Supreme Power and later The Twelve but I couldn't get into the rest of Marvel and DC work because of Sins Past, and I'm not emotionally invested in Gwen Stacy in comics where she died because those were published before I was born and only read them in various TPB collections. I get the importance but for me they are like history that I have no connection too.

    Now his non-Marvel/DC work that is another matter I think Midnight Nation is his greatest work in any media (IMHO it's better than Babylon 5, Crusade, and Sense 8).
    Last edited by Cyberstrike; 05-26-2020 at 04:35 AM.

  4. #34
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberstrike View Post
    Sadly Quasada isn't alone in that way of thinking, former DC co-publisher Dan DiBio is also the same way after Batwoman purposed to her girlfriend, a decision that the editors on the book agreed too DiBio over-ruled and stated that all DC heroes couldn't get married this screwed up Aquaman because to have Queen Mera be a queen they had to be married. DiBio thought of the DC heroes as first responders and didn't think it was right for them to have families because it wasn't fair to their wives and husbands. Never mind that IMHO is disrespectful to the families of are plenty of cops, firefighters, doctors, active military and so on who go in to these relationship well aware of what is expected, and the irony of all this Batwoman's girlfriend who she wanted to marry was a cop. He also thought it aged the characters up as well.

    I stopped enjoying reading Spider-Man after Sins Past because it didn't do any of the characters any damn good, and soured me on JMS as a writer for superheroes even though I had enjoyed his work on Supreme Power and later The Twelve but I couldn't get into the rest of Marvel and DC work because of Sins Past, and I'm not emotionally invested in Gwen Stacy in comics where she died because those were published before I was born and only read them in various TPB collections. I get the importance but for me they are like history that I have no connection too.

    Now his non-Marvel/DC work that is another matter I think Midnight Nation is his greatest work in any media (IMHO it's better than Babylon 5, Crusade, and Sense 8).
    Not to mention that families and loved ones give heroes something concrete to fight for, as opposed to just fighting against something or fighting for something more abstract and general like "humanity" or "the world." Without a genuine (and personal) connection to the lives and world they're saving, what do heroes really have to fight for, and why should they really care? Of course, this was also part of a longstanding attitude that "heroes don't/shouldn't get to be happy, because then they have no motivation," which is --- if I may paraphrase Mark Waid's Daredevil for a moment --- "vomitous garbage!" No wonder DC was going down the tubes before the Rebirth initiative.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Not to mention that families and loved ones give heroes something concrete to fight for, as opposed to just fighting against something or fighting for something more abstract and general like "humanity" or "the world." Without a genuine (and personal) connection to the lives and world they're saving, what do heroes really have to fight for, and why should they really care? Of course, this was also part of a longstanding attitude that "heroes don't/shouldn't get to be happy, because then they have no motivation," which is --- if I may paraphrase Mark Waid's Daredevil for a moment --- "vomitous garbage!" No wonder DC was going down the tubes before the Rebirth initiative.
    That is 100% correct, and it is especially true about ASM. Why? Because Peter Parker is every bit as important as Spider-Man ( if not more). This was proven true by Spencer when he split them apart ( Spider-Man without Pete was an arrogant douche ( not as bad as Otto as Superior but not likable). Keep in mind, Pete is a reluctant hero, he has suffered a lot for being Spider-Man ( starting with Amazing Fantasy 15 and Uncle Ben), but he does the job because there is a need for a Spider-Man ( at least until Miles can take over). Interestingly enough, it is also the reality the MJ herself finally understands. Keep in mind, Pete is not a 24/7 superhero, he deserves MJ to come home to.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    That is 100% correct, and it is especially true about ASM. Why? Because Peter Parker is every bit as important as Spider-Man ( if not more). This was proven true by Spencer when he split them apart ( Spider-Man without Pete was an arrogant douche ( not as bad as Otto as Superior but not likable). Keep in mind, Pete is a reluctant hero, he has suffered a lot for being Spider-Man ( starting with Amazing Fantasy 15 and Uncle Ben), but he does the job because there is a need for a Spider-Man ( at least until Miles can take over). Interestingly enough, it is also the reality the MJ herself finally understands. Keep in mind, Pete is not a 24/7 superhero, he deserves MJ to come home to.
    An arrogant douche who didn't even remember his core motivation for being a hero in the first place, and yes, while I've said this before, I think the whole "24/7 superhero" thing has done a lot of damage to the Marvel Universe, because so many of the superheroes these days have little if any connection with the people they're supposed to protect.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #37
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    An arrogant douche who didn't even remember his core motivation for being a hero in the first place, and yes, while I've said this before, I think the whole "24/7 superhero" thing has done a lot of damage to the Marvel Universe, because so many of the superheroes these days have little if any connection with the people they're supposed to protect.
    I don't know why so many writers try to avoid supporting casts and secret identities these days.

    It used to be the characters would take off their costumes, go to their day jobs, interact with other people that didn't know they were heroes. We'd see a different side of their lives and personalities, and the non-super powered set would have their own plot lines that would intersect with the heroes.

    Nowadays everybody just sits around in full costumes (give or take a mask) at the table and talks with Luke Cage or whatever other hero happens to be handy, and they talk about hero stuff.

    There's no outside view anymore. Heroes have become detached to the normal population. Heck, over in the X-books they've decided to make a whole new country that has ONLY their superheroes and villains.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Not to mention that families and loved ones give heroes something concrete to fight for, as opposed to just fighting against something or fighting for something more abstract and general like "humanity" or "the world." Without a genuine (and personal) connection to the lives and world they're saving, what do heroes really have to fight for, and why should they really care? Of course, this was also part of a longstanding attitude that "heroes don't/shouldn't get to be happy, because then they have no motivation," which is --- if I may paraphrase Mark Waid's Daredevil for a moment --- "vomitous garbage!" No wonder DC was going down the tubes before the Rebirth initiative.
    I think Mark Waid said it best people don't relate to Spider-Man or Superman they relate to Peter Parker or Clark Kent. I can't remember a lot of superhero fights (unless it's insanely gory or funny) but I remember when Mary Jane knocked out a stalker by herself. I remember the human drama or the "soap opera" aspects of superheroes than the fighting the villains or whatever they were up to. DC has basically abandoned that and Marvel isn't far behind.
    Last edited by Cyberstrike; 05-26-2020 at 06:44 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I don't know why so many writers try to avoid supporting casts and secret identities these days.

    It used to be the characters would take off their costumes, go to their day jobs, interact with other people that didn't know they were heroes. We'd see a different side of their lives and personalities, and the non-super powered set would have their own plot lines that would intersect with the heroes.

    Nowadays everybody just sits around in full costumes (give or take a mask) at the table and talks with Luke Cage or whatever other hero happens to be handy, and they talk about hero stuff.

    There's no outside view anymore. Heroes have become detached to the normal population. Heck, over in the X-books they've decided to make a whole new country that has ONLY their superheroes and villains.
    Heroes becoming detached from the rest of the populace in turn results in the populace becoming alienated from them, because once the public is convinced their so-called "protectors" don't really care about them . . . well, that's how and why much of the public supported HYDRA's takeover of the US back during Secret Empire. HYDRA, with all its history, did a better job of at least feigning care for the masses than the superheroes did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberstrike View Post
    I think Mark Waid said it best people don't relate to Spider-Man or Superman they relate to Peter Parker or Clark Kent. I can't remember a lot of superhero fights (unless it's insanely gory or funny) but I remember when Mary Jane knocked out a stalker by herself. I remember the human drama or the "soap opera" aspects of superheroes than the fighting the villains or whatever they were up to. DC has basically abandoned that and Marvel isn't far behind.
    Aside from the younger generation of heroes, most of whom still have at least one living parent and aren't "conveniently orphaned," so they can't just say, "F*** civilian life, I'm gonna be a full-time superhero" the way their adult counterparts largely have.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #40
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    The superhero comes first, the person and identity comes second. In most peoples eyes.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    The superhero comes first, the person and identity comes second. In most peoples eyes.
    Maybe, but frankly, without the person behind the mask giving the audience/readership a reason to care about them, what's the point?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Maybe, but frankly, without the person behind the mask giving the audience/readership a reason to care about them, what's the point?
    For me as a child, spideys powers and quips were enough. It was then later on i explored his character more than that and became hooked but first impressions and face value usually win out for fan interest.

  13. #43
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Maybe, but frankly, without the person behind the mask giving the audience/readership a reason to care about them, what's the point?
    I couldn't possibly agree with you more, well put.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I couldn't possibly agree with you more, well put.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    For me as a child, spideys powers and quips were enough. It was then later on i explored his character more than that and became hooked but first impressions and face value usually win out for fan interest.
    The 90s animated series was what hooked me on Spider-Man when I was growing up, and it had plenty of personal drama. Some of it might have gone over my head as a kid, but looking back, I appreciated that it didn't treat me like an ADD-addled idiot.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #45
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    Sins Past was a disgrace but OMD still pisses me off to this day.

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