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  1. #61
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    It's kinda weird that nothing else has stuck, considering the 10 run Excalibur had with Rachael where they went into depth about the Phoenix's backstory that had Claremont and Alan Davis both working on the title. It just seemed when the book was canceled, everything that happened there was swept under the rug never to be mentioned again.

    Necrom and the Anti-Phoenix feels like an idea and character that really should have been brought back by now.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMikey View Post
    Glad this served as some sense of verification, to the point of interest

    Um... you put it well using variables LOL and yes, I don't know what she would spoil or not, so it was hard to really explain certain plot points, without spoilers. I too am very excited, intrigued, and trying to work on ideas for some of these episodes myself.

    She's working hard to get this first short complete, and once she does have it done, "think tanks" will be set up for some Marvel fans to join in, discuss ideas of their own, bring in ideas from other fans, as well as critique ideas from the primary writers. I think you may make a good contributor; you'd learn what the spoilers are, and get better insight of the story as a whole.

    The main writer, is also the animator, and this is gonna start this off as a fanime animated series, but... she is looking to pass some storylines to other creators, to turn motion comics. First short will be announced on Facebook, and should be out in 2 wks.

    Funny you mention Giraud, while I've only heard of him, others have suggested he make an appearance, as well as Quentin Quire, Rachel for sure, and Feron.
    Thanks!

    I think being a contributor would be fun, helpful to the design team, and I would love to see Giraud definitely make an appearance!!

    Please keep me informed.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's kinda weird that nothing else has stuck, considering the 10 run Excalibur had with Rachael where they went into depth about the Phoenix's backstory that had Claremont and Alan Davis both working on the title. It just seemed when the book was canceled, everything that happened there was swept under the rug never to be mentioned again.

    Necrom and the Anti-Phoenix feels like an idea and character that really should have been brought back by now.
    The thing is, the Phoenix isn't something that should be explained in detail or have an extensive backstory, because that kind of ruins the magic of it. Somebody earlier brought up the comparison to the Force from Star Wars, and really the Phoenix should be treated the same way, it's something that should always be looming there that everyone recognizes and respects, but nobody really talks about except in vague terms. Once you start getting into the nitty gritty of midichlorians and stuff that like, the whole mystery and allure evaporates, and the same sort of thing happens whenever writers try to explain what the Phoenix actually is. And frankly, this is something that comic book writers are terrible at, because good storytelling should be about visual and emotional impact, not feats and power levels.

  4. #64
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I think it's just a recognition that all of Marvel's efforts to try and make the Phoenix something that can be passed around to any character haven't really stuck or made the same impression on fans as the original, and that regardless of what story they put out there people will always associate it primarily with Jean Grey. Like most good power-ups, the Phoenix is intrinsically tied up in Jean's personal development and that doesn't really transfer to other characters very well. From the beginning, Claremont used the Phoenix as a none-too-subtle metaphor for Jean's sexual maturation into a woman with all the power and beauty, but also all of the rage and madness, that came with that, so expecting to be able to pass the Phoenix off to someone like Namor and expecting it to work the same way is kind of foolish. Of course, the original story also plays into the old stereotype that women are just inherently crazy and need to be brought under control, and subsequent retellings that don't quite understand that and force Jean to renounce the Phoenix and be the pliant good girl once again also have some troubling implications. Now, this doesn't mean that the Phoenix can't be used for other types of stories or that the concept doesn't have potential to be expanded further, but for 40 years Marvel has just basically dipped into the same well over and over and hasn't really taken it in interesting directions. Passing it around to different characters just has the effect of devaluing it as a concept, turning it into some generic power-up and ignoring what made it special in the first place.
    That was part of the conversation I had with the fanmade Marvel Multiverse series writer/producer. She made an interesting point that, she felt the comic writers' DIDN'T put any creative effort into other hosts of the Phoenix, in effort to preserve Jean Grey's "special" legacy, rather than allow creativity and innovation to make way for something new and fresh. She says that potential of the Phoenix Force is "severely stunted", due to it's attachment to Jean Grey, and the writers fear to explore this force, with proper respect, through another character that would offer new ideas and directions. To her, the Phoenix would work with other hosts, but there has to be "care for development" involved and a willingness to go beyond this force being bound to Jean Grey. Aamof, the Mutant she chose to become the "One True Host" of this new Cosmic Entity, fits the mythological Phoenix spirit more than any other character in Marvel's roster. I didn't believe her, until she did her break down of this character's personality and history and... I'm sorry, what she said made all the sense in the world.

    I am aware of what Chris Claremont was trying to accomplish with the original story of Jean Grey as Phoenix, which is... kinda why I like the retcon. It's just unfortunate that it hasn't been handled well after him. Like... at all. I kinda am in agreement with this other point, and that is, the Phoenix, early on after its retcon, should have been explored with other potential hosts; that way it could have been distanced enough from Jean Grey, to allow readers to accept new possibilities with the Phoenix. I do agree with you on too many hosts would devalue what the Phoenix is... but at the same time, the repetitious storytelling involving Jean Grey, and mishandling of it we've seen, has also, devalued the Phoenix Force's narrative as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The thing is, the Phoenix isn't something that should be explained in detail or have an extensive backstory, because that kind of ruins the magic of it. Somebody earlier brought up the comparison to the Force from Star Wars, and really the Phoenix should be treated the same way, it's something that should always be looming there that everyone recognizes and respects, but nobody really talks about except in vague terms. Once you start getting into the nitty gritty of midichlorians and stuff that like, the whole mystery and allure evaporates, and the same sort of thing happens whenever writers try to explain what the Phoenix actually is. And frankly, this is something that comic book writers are terrible at, because good storytelling should be about visual and emotional impact, not feats and power levels.
    The fan producer I mentioned is the one that paired the Phoenix with the Force from Star Wars. In that convo, she did state that due to all the retcons and retellings of the Phoenix, has led to the wrong kind of exploration, which "devalues" the mystique and magic of this being a force. She wants to bring mystique and mysterious back to the Phoenix Force in this story. Its the reason why she's practically dumping everything from recent canon, and "starting fresh". How Jean Grey becomes Phoenix, and why she's the "One True Host" is all explained very differently, and frankly, makes more sense than the comic narratives.

    However, she also wants to bring something to the Phoenix that would take it's narrative to "the next level", and that's where this "Cosmic Rival" comes to play. With all the mystery around the Phoenix, and even more so darkly mysterious, paradoxical narrative of the new Cosmic Being, would bring about the kind of evolution and imaginative stories she's yearned to see for the Phoenix as a whole. But also, explore a NEW Mutant develop as a Cosmic Antihero, and embark on incredible, imaginative, and unique journeys and deep exploration of Self, that ISN'T Jean Grey as the Phoenix.
    Last edited by GMikey; 07-04-2020 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #65
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's kinda weird that nothing else has stuck, considering the 10 run Excalibur had with Rachael where they went into depth about the Phoenix's backstory that had Claremont and Alan Davis both working on the title. It just seemed when the book was canceled, everything that happened there was swept under the rug never to be mentioned again.

    Necrom and the Anti-Phoenix feels like an idea and character that really should have been brought back by now.
    Now... The Anti-Phoenix IS something on the table of discussion. There are fans in the think tanks that DO like the Anti-Phoenix and Necrom, and some that don't. The primary writer/producer does like the idea, and already has a fairly unique story involving Feron anyway.

    Like another member stated, too much detail about the Phoenix is probably problematic, like their example of where Star Wars went wrong, introducing the midichlorians. The issue is, they can't get anything new to stick due to... lack of imagination I feel. The writer feels though it's the fact Jean Grey was way overly used and attached to the Phoenix's narrative, and that it stunted growth, creatively speaking.

  6. #66
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Thanks!

    I think being a contributor would be fun, helpful to the design team, and I would love to see Giraud definitely make an appearance!!

    Please keep me informed.
    I definitely will.

    The link to this Marvel fan forum has already been shared, so soon enough, she will start a think tank thread or whatever, and whoever wanna get on board, is welcomed to

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMikey View Post
    I definitely will.

    The link to this Marvel fan forum has already been shared, so soon enough, she will start a think tank thread or whatever, and whoever wanna get on board, is welcomed to
    Very cool.

    Thanks!

  8. #68
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    I had no idea I posted something ridiculous LOL it was late like... 3am or so. Anyway, can't delete this post, so... I just edited this instead
    Last edited by GMikey; 07-06-2020 at 09:14 AM. Reason: It was a late night beans post

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