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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Default Dave Filoni and Sequel trilogy Luke & Leia

    I've been reading the "Rise of Skywalker" art book and it contains some interesting details from meetings where they were sort of semi-mapping the sequel trilogy, and it's kind of got a curious take that Filoni has on Luke (From around 2014 or so):


    “I think Luke understands that it’s not about what he wants. It’s not about what he gains. It’s frankly about what everybody else gained. Sometimes, you have to be the one that carries that burden and becomes that vessel. These aren’t characters that go and get married. They don’t get over the scar. Frodo [from The Lord of the Rings] carries the ring to Mount Doom and for the rest of his life is plagued with fear. On certain days, he remembers those pains. Because he has to carry that burden. And Frodo has no peace until he leaves that world. Luke is that character.”

    He also has an interesting take on Leia's role in the sequel trilogy, which kind of anticipates Kylo's redemption.

    https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/...equel-trilogy/


    It's kind of curious, a lot of people seem to think the decision to make such a radical (and controversial) change to Luke was mainly the work of Abrams and Johnson, but it looks like Filoni-who is definitely highly esteemed these days for his Clone Wars finale and Mandalorian work-was also in a way responsible.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 05-15-2020 at 03:29 PM.
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  2. #2
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    The motivation he gives the change makes sense, I would have loved it if he had simply been given the sequel trilogy to start with. Over all I think Mark Hamil made it work but as it was on the screen did feel weak.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I've been reading the "Rise of Skywalker" art book and it contains some interesting details from meetings where they were sort of semi-mapping the sequel trilogy, and it's kind of got a curious take that Filoni has on Luke (From around 2014 or so):


    “I think Luke understands that it’s not about what he wants. It’s not about what he gains. It’s frankly about what everybody else gained. Sometimes, you have to be the one that carries that burden and becomes that vessel. These aren’t characters that go and get married. They don’t get over the scar. Frodo [from The Lord of the Rings] carries the ring to Mount Doom and for the rest of his life is plagued with fear. On certain days, he remembers those pains. Because he has to carry that burden. And Frodo has no peace until he leaves that world. Luke is that character.”

    He also has an interesting take on Leia's role in the sequel trilogy, which kind of anticipates Kylo's redemption.

    https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/...equel-trilogy/


    It's kind of curious, a lot of people seem to think the decision to make such a radical (and controversial) change to Luke was mainly the work of Abrams and Johnson, but it looks like Filoni-who is definitely highly esteemed these days for his Clone Wars finale and Mandalorian work-was also in a way responsible.
    I don’t think this shows he had any impact on the actual writing for Luke: for one thing, Rian Johnson has basically claimed all credit/blame/responsibility for the content of TLJ’s story, with no one ever disputing that...

    ...And for another, the TLJ story most certainly isn’t about what “everybody else gained;” it’s mostly about pretentiously wallowing in one’s own pain to the point of melodrama before a half-baked instance of “getting some groove back” and having the film torch the new story around it.

    In terms of him trying to justify the idea of Luke being darker and forever single, it’s not bad, but it also doesn’t require being pathetic, failing to pass the torch to Rey, and even outside of that, has less adequacy in explicating Luke being single than, say, “Lucas would want him that way,” or “Jedi and no attachments is soemthing we still want for some reason;” Single!Luke was always a more limiting creative decision than not.

    His feelings on Leia feel less like having an impact on the story, and more like just a statment of the conventional views that LFL would likely have and that unfortunately got wasted on the turd of Kylo Ren rather than on Rey or Finn.
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    Spectacular Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    The motivation he gives the change makes sense, I would have loved it if he had simply been given the sequel trilogy to start with. Over all I think Mark Hamil made it work but as it was on the screen did feel weak.
    I’m pretty sure early drafts from Lucas also had Luke as some kind of hermit. It all comes down to the execution. They rushed Luke’s journey and killed him off too quick, and there wasn’t a lot of good material coming from the B and C plots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I’m pretty sure early drafts from Lucas also had Luke as some kind of hermit. It all comes down to the execution. They rushed Luke’s journey and killed him off too quick, and there wasn’t a lot of good material coming from the B and C plots.
    Yeah, I don’t think anyone objected to the broad concept of “Luke Skywalker is a broken man in exile”, which was clearly a part of Lucas, Arndt, and Arbams’s different takes on VII before it finally reached the screen, and well before TLJ did its thing to define what that would mean during its run-times. Heck, most of the people angry at the ST now spent the interim between TFA and TLJ excitedly speculating about what would show up in TLJ.

    Nothing about anything Lucas planned, Abrams’s TFA set-up, or Filoni’s comments there, requires Luke to end up as a cowardly jerk who adds nothing the main plotline of the ST. Heck, Lucas, Arndt and Abrams’s different drafts and expectations clearly relied on the idea of Luke teaching Rey the ways fo the Force.

    Heck, even Johnson’s LFL production crew seemed to think that idea, since they thought they were “correcting” Hamill’s objections to the story by telling him he was playing the oBi-Wan role instead of the Luke one... since an Obi-Wan role would have actually, you know, trained Rey,
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    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I've always been for what happened to Luke except for the reasoning behind his seclusion. He should have been in hiding for reasons which were shown to be of necessity like Obi-Wan and Yoda. Just instead of having to hide from the Empire like they did, he was searching for something/doing something to help the cause in a way only he could. The added incentive of being ashamed of his role in Ben's fall would have also worked mixed in with that greater purpose. TFA's foreshadowing supported this very type of notion, but of course, that changed for "subvert expectation" reasons. Going there to die was stupid. Cutting himself off from the Force was stupid (now, an unwilling or grudging cut off, again for a specific purpose, could have been interesting). Main point being he shouldn't have been ready to give up and die until he did all he could for this latest threat. But everything else was fine. The general idea of being a loner hermit who had inner demons over a Legends take of highly successful married Jedi and father who restored the Order on his first try was not a sticking point with me at all.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-16-2020 at 02:45 PM.
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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It's a bit unclear I think why he decided to stay at the first Jedi Temple of all places. The between-trilogies EU (and some hints in the ST itself) seem to imply he was a bit of a Jedi Indiana Jones, trying to find old Jedi sites and stuff, but it's still not exactly clear why he chose that particular place to retire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    It's a bit unclear I think why he decided to stay at the first Jedi Temple of all places. The between-trilogies EU (and some hints in the ST itself) seem to imply he was a bit of a Jedi Indiana Jones, trying to find old Jedi sites and stuff, but it's still not exactly clear why he chose that particular place to retire.
    Pablo Hidalgo’s work on the visual guide seemed to suggest that the answer LFL was running with for his location was that he was acting as a “final custodian” of the Jedi way; that his Jedi robes were there in part because he was ceremonially ending the Jedi for some reason, which kind of matches with Johnson having him Redon the robes before trying to burn down the library.

    I think Johnson was vaguely alluding to Luke fighting an inner battle over being a Jedi, where in spite of his protestations, he was supposed to still quietly desire the return to the Order he ends up with.

    It’s just that I still think Johnson had a rather emotionally cold and self-centered read of Luke’s character to get there; his writing for Luke is a bit like his writing for Kylo, in that both men are consumed and driven almost entirely by inner desires self-focused feelings, which can work for a selfish douchebag like Kylo (though not for the paradoxical idea he’s sympathetic) but doesn’t really fit with a Luke Skywalker who’s generally been driven by altruistic selflessness or a protective instinct for his friends and loved ones.

    I think Johnson was vaguely alluding to some aspect of Luke being afraid of hurting more people by training new Jedi... but that wouldn’t fit with either the way he directed Hamill and wrote Luke’s scenes, or with a Luke who wouldn’t still try getting involved in some way; if Luke were terrified of the Jedi somehow baring responsibility for more darksiders, that still wouldn’t really stop “Commander Skywalker” from joining the Resistance just to try and help.

    There were really only two things that I think Luke *had* to have or do in TLJ to honor his character; be on Ach-To for some reason that would be tolerable while staying out of the Galaxy while billions are murdered and millions enslaved, and train Rey as a Jedi to ensure that the Return of the Jedi actually tied directly into Rey’s story, and that she got “the rub” from the previous hero. TLJ seemed to dump both those ideas, even the training one: he gives her one good introductory lesson on meditation, but it and the other lesson he teaches out fo the three he promises and failed to teach her, are more concerned with faux-philosophical hipster commentary on the PT Jedi.

    I can understand the idea of Luke being single and only having one successful student in his career, even if I disagree with it and think it limits the character and kind of screwed over Rey to cut off that possibility as well as the Solos for her parentage .

    But to me, the ST’s story gains absolutely *nothing* from Luke’s story in TLJ beyond a redundant and pretentious epilogue to Luke’s OT story.
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    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    I liked crotchety and mean hermit Luke. It felt earned and lined up with my expectations from the OT. He felt like my Luke and the about face in TOS felt earned, too. He had one final lesson to learn from Master Yoda after all ...

    I never liked superhero Jesus Luke of the Legends continuity. I would often avoid books he was in unless I read a review that said he was relatively minor to the plot. I guess that's why I liked his arc/demeanor/motives in Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, and Planet of Twilight (most people hated those stories). I also enjoyed him in the New Rebellion.

    I groaned when the saber flew in the forest in TFA because I was thinking, "Oh great, here comes super Jesus ex machina Luke to save the day," and cheered when Rey was shown to have it.

    I was a bit sad we never got to see him wield the emerald green saber in an actual fight as Master Skywalker, though. I do not think everything was perfect but I quite enjoyed the story we got. It was miles better than most of the Legends ideas. Most of those were retreads of the OT, moreso than what people complained about in the ST.

    But I expect to be in the minority till another Star Wars movie comes out and pisses off a new segment of fans while gaining new ones in their place.
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  10. #10

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    I'm not against broken Luke but it didn't feel earned IMO. Honestly TLJ Luke came off as a coward for me. I don't think that was RJ's intention but that's how it came off as for me. Personally I found TLJ Luke to be more arrogant then all of the prequel Jedi.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I liked crotchety and mean hermit Luke. It felt earned and lined up with my expectations from the OT. He felt like my Luke and the about face in TOS felt earned, too. He had one final lesson to learn from Master Yoda after all ...

    I never liked superhero Jesus Luke of the Legends continuity. I would often avoid books he was in unless I read a review that said he was relatively minor to the plot. I guess that's why I liked his arc/demeanor/motives in Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, and Planet of Twilight (most people hated those stories). I also enjoyed him in the New Rebellion.
    Yes, loved TLJ Luke and really disliked his post-ROTJ Legends counterpart for similar reasons (although his failure and exile was more of an idea that the movie sold me on then what I was expecting). In any event, seeing the movie really helped me understand why I found Legends Luke so boring in comparison to the old movies. (For me, Timothy Zahn was one of the few who did a good Luke, even after he was pretty comfortable with himself.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I groaned when the saber flew in the forest in TFA because I was thinking, "Oh great, here comes super Jesus ex machina Luke to save the day," and cheered when Rey was shown to have it.
    The idea never crossed my mind. Great scene, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I was a bit sad we never got to see him wield the emerald green saber in an actual fight as Master Skywalker, though. I do not think everything was perfect but I quite enjoyed the story we got. It was miles better than most of the Legends ideas. Most of those were retreads of the OT, moreso than what people complained about in the ST.
    Somehow, the fight not being "real" made it more impactful. Gotta love the story being driven by it and all the clues of what's really going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    But I expect to be in the minority till another Star Wars movie comes out and pisses off a new segment of fans while gaining new ones in their place.
    That's the way things have always been. I'm counting myself lucky that, so far, I've been able to enjoy most of everything we've gotten in each new "era" of new materials.
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  12. #12
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Luke was exiled in the last few books in the Legends continuity, but it was kind of a "Working vacation"/getting fired rather than self-imposed, with Luke using the time off to unravel some force mysteries while away from Jedi business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I'm not against broken Luke but it didn't feel earned...
    I think that is a shared sentiment of a lot of people, not that Luke is a mean spirited broken man, but the reason that he is that way.

    “I think Luke understands that it’s not about what he wants. It’s not about what he gains. It’s frankly about what everybody else gained. Sometimes, you have to be the one that carries that burden and becomes that vessel."
    This is not the Luke that is in The Last Jedi... No body has gained anything from Luke's actions, the Galaxy is pretty much in the same place where it started when Luke entered the story. He is not carrying a burden he is running from it, hiding for selfish reasons becasue it was too much for him. It is not the fact that he is bitter and broken and alone, its the reasoning and motivation of why his is that way that many people have an issue with. Obi-Wan carried a burden, that he sat by while the empire gained more control over the people causing wide pain and suffering because it was his duty to watch over the son of the man that he couldn't save until the day Luke's time came. I don't think it is fair to say to someone that "oh you what boring super god mode Luke" when you give the opinion that you don't like the cowardly self serving Luke of The Last Jedi as if those were the only two options.
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    I take far less umbrage with Luke's isolation and self-imposed exile, or even his sneaky pacifistic way he delayed Kylo and saved everyone, than I do the inciting incident flashbacks themselves and the notion that Luke would lose faith in Ben Solo before he'd truly gone dark or done anything irredeemable.

    Luke saw the good in Darth Vader, and edged close enough to the dark side himself on enough occasions that he understood that it could happen to anyone and had compassion about it. Ben edging close to the dark side shouldn't have triggered him in that way, and saying "Palpatine was voodooing everything" doesn't cut it for magical motivation either because Luke was able to resist and figure all this out when Palps was alive and well and Peak Power. That tracks to the writing. People are on point these days to say that it was Abrams who put Luke on the island so it's not all Rian Johnson's fault, but the "reason why he's on the island" was in Johnson's script. Not only does it not cut it for Luke's motivation, it doesn't cut it for Ben's either. He's the son of Han Solo, he was always going to be edgy. I think it's a valid critique.

    But I do agree with Filoni that Luke trends toward the Frodo Baggins "live with this, don't get the suburban happy ending" hero archetype. Even if he has a Mara Jade or something it's hard to think it's going to end all rosy. Only Jedi in existence ... kind of too big a target, not even just for malevolent anti-Jedi forces, but just for big cosmic storylines and dramas in general.
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    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    There's an interesting bit in the ROS reference books that basically the First Order wanted to weaken the heroes of the Rebellion by going after their families. Although it was cut from the movie, Lando's daughter was taken from him as part of the FO's Stormtrooper program (And of course it's implied Jannah is that daughter) and that's also why, in part, why Palpatine focused on Ben Solo.

    It's something that came up in the old EU as well, pretty much every other novel in the Bantam era had some B-plot about the Imperial remnant trying to kidnap Jacen, Jaina and Anakin.
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