Would Geoff John's GL Be As Big If It Starred John Stewart instead of Hal?

[skyvolt2000]

I would agree with that.

There seems a push... not just in comics, but in life in general... that you can't write without a political agenda. It's not enough to write a cool black character... it has to be a black character constantly talking about he's put down by and treated like crap by white characters. Women cant' be heroes without bragging about how they are women and women are awesome and men are dumb...

Let me share something and this is from actual writers who have told me this-a LOT of that stuff you pointed out is being enforced by EDITORS and the folks who write the checks.

A writer wrote a story about a black boy who was a skateboarder. She presented the book to her editor. This was what she was told-"do black folks really do that?"
Dwayne McDuffie had to FIGHT the network over Static having a FATHER. They wanted Static from a single mother home. They did not want married parents.
Mario Van Peebles was told for a movie he wanted to do-the black family HAD to be in the ghetto.
Black writers tend to deal with this way more than the white ones.

It's not really political agendas-it PANDERING to certain elements of a demographic based on the assumption of THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO ACCEPT.

It's why you don't see certain books or shows. Or they don't get the promotion that they should.

Because I can list a lot of books and shows that don't do what you say. They are books and shows that just HAPPEN to star blacks.
The Legends of Greemulax. The lead is a black boy turning into a monster.
Rivers of London a black guy who works for a force dealing with the supernatural.
Darius Logan & Superforce (by David Walker) think Justice League with We Are Robin version of Duke Thomas.

[Sodam Yat]

I remember the post too and I remember him literally saying something to the effect of "John Stewart was the first Green Lantern I ever read and I've loved him ever since." Now, was he telling the truth? I dunno. I don't know Geoff personally so I can't say, but then again, neither can you (unless you actually do know Geoff Johns personally). And that's the point. A lot of the theorizing that Geoff hates John Stewart, at least at this point, is just that: theorizing. None of us know the man or know what his thought process was when crafting his GL run. And mainstream comics are not like regular books where the writer has full creative control over their own characters. DC is a company and DC characters are owned by said company, which for the most part, decides how and when they're used. The writers only get control or creative latitude when they're allowed to have it.

This isn't a clear cut case here. It's not like other instances I can recall where creators literally came out saying that they had a problem with a specific character or class of characters. Because those cases exist. However, there's no real proof that this is one of them.

He didn't say that, he said this:

The first Green Lantern comic I ever bought. Grew up with John Stewart. Re-reading the run from his intro to Mosaic. Anxious for Jason Fabok to draw him in upcoming issues of Justice League!

That was it. He never said he loved the character. In fact, I never heard him say that. He would say something like he's badass. And I think what he means by that is John doing cool stuff. Like taking on millions of black lanterns, exceeding his ring, or sniping some yellow lantern sectors away. And that's not what I'm really looking for as a fan. Those are just one panel stuff that doesn't add any meaning to the mythology. I'm looking for a fully fleshed out character that has a major role in stories like Hal, Kyle, and Guy did around that time. His writing pretty much speaks for itself.

Geoff Johns brought the Green Lantern new heights. I find it hard to believe with someone with that credibility would have issues convincing editorial to do something with John.

[skyvolt2000]

Geoff Johns brought the Green Lantern new heights. I find it hard to believe with someone with that credibility would have issues convincing editorial to do something with John.

Depends on who the editors are. Depends on what they and others in charge want.

[Username taken]

After decades of being spoon-fed tales of white exceptionalism, do you really not think there wasn't an "agenda?" Maybe you got too used to seeing straight white male saviors to not notice that "other demographics" were put down or kept down ALL THE TIME, either with terrible stereotypes, never measuring up to the white hero or simply by not being allowed to be seen at all? (and then there's the issue of co-opting another culture) The agenda of media representing culture shows itself differently now because those tales were maintaining and upholding the status quo rather than trying to upset it, but don't kid yourself that any culture's depiction of its heroes doesn't have some agenda - always has, always will. Maybe you're just noticing it now because it doesn't mesh with the storylines and the agenda to which you've become indoctrinated.

Quoted for truth.

Going through the history of comics and you’ll be surprised at how much bigotry and sexism played a role in editorial back in the day. It wasn’t a passive situation with the status quo being what it was, it was a pretty deliberate effort to keep things as they were. And such attitudes still exist to this VERY DAY. If not for a boardroom Civil War at Disney, Perlmutter would have prevented the making of Black Panther or Captain Marvel (and seeing the reaction to that movie tells me that it’s not just Perlmutter that holds some biases against female heroes). That’s just one very prominent case of a person in power actively fighting against diversity in lead roles.

This isn’t just in comics or superhero movies, it even extends to stuff like horror movies when the black character almost always used to get killed off first and in very gruesome ways. Folks might not agree but it just speaks to an attitude of a lot of people not really caring about seeing black people get killed which unfortunately extends to real life. Why? Because they can’t break away from ridiculous upbringing and stand up to a culture that reinforced this nonsense in the past.

I don’t like the politics in comics discussion because it’s a very complicated discussion. And for folks that say kids don’t care that heroes don’t look like them, beyond a certain point and age it’s not true. It’s a very complex discussion but the long and short of it is, people should be depicted and treated fairly regardless of race, gender and/or color. Treating any character that isn’t a straight white make as an “other” is part of reason why minorities haven’t traditionally been treated well in superhero comics.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

He didn't say that, he said this:



That was it. He never said he loved the character. In fact, I never heard him say that. He would say something like he's badass. And I think what he means by that is John doing cool stuff. Like taking on millions of black lanterns, exceeding his ring, or sniping some yellow lantern sectors away. And that's not what I'm really looking for as a fan. Those are just one panel stuff that doesn't add any meaning to the mythology. I'm looking for a fully fleshed out character that has a major role in stories like Hal, Kyle, and Guy did around that time. His writing pretty much speaks for itself.

Geoff Johns brought the Green Lantern new heights. I find it hard to believe with someone with that credibility would have issues convincing editorial to do something with John.

Okay, so I misremembered the quote. But, that still begs the question: why would Geoff Johns be rereading a run featuring a character he has no particular affinity for? That just makes no sense.

Furthermore, I feel like you're really assuming Geoff Johns had more control than he actually did at the time. For one, Geoff Johns wasn't GEOFF JOHNS when he took over Green Lantern. It was his success in that book that would bring him that level of stardom eventually, but it kinda wasn't until 2009 (around the time Blackest Night was coming out) that Johns reached the peak of his popularity.

Secondly, even writers who had seemingly produced historically popular runs at DC weren't necessarily given carte blanche to do what they wanted. Mark Waid, for example, who had written what is basically the most popular run on Flash to this day even, had heated disagreements with those in charge of DC editorial at around the same time. Look no further than how the creative team behind 52 (which included Geoff Johns, btw) faced almost unprecedented levels of behind the scenes interference and undermining. And if reports of more recent behind-the-scenes squabbles are to be believed, it appears that Johns wasn't above having his plans derailed even after achieving superstar writer status.

Now, the agenda that some in DC editorial had at that time was clear: bring back Silver Age heroes who had previously held the roles now occupied by legacy characters. And while that agenda was absolutely controversial, in the case of Hal at least, that actually lined up with what a lot of fans wanted.

Now, while Geoff Johns himself was also one of the people who wanted to see Hal Jordan back as a Green Lantern, I would not be surprised if it was revealed that there were some restrictions on which Lanterns Johns could use, since again he seems, for the most part, a fan of all of them. And of course, because the JLU cartoon was coming out at around the same time, DC editorial might have thought John was better served remaining on the Justice League book. Now, this is all conjecture of course, but then again, you're also basing your conclusion on conjecture.

[Anthony Shaw]

After decades of being spoon-fed tales of white exceptionalism, do you really not think there wasn't an "agenda?" Maybe you got too used to seeing straight white male saviors to not notice that "other demographics" were put down or kept down ALL THE TIME, either with terrible stereotypes, never measuring up to the white hero or simply by not being allowed to be seen at all? (and then there's the issue of co-opting another culture) The agenda of media representing culture shows itself differently now because those tales were maintaining and upholding the status quo rather than trying to upset it, but don't kid yourself that any culture's depiction of its heroes doesn't have some agenda - always has, always will. Maybe you're just noticing it now because it doesn't mesh with the storylines and the agenda to which you've become indoctrinated.

Quoted for truth.

Going through the history of comics and you’ll be surprised at how much bigotry and sexism played a role in editorial back in the day. It wasn’t a passive situation with the status quo being what it was, it was a pretty deliberate effort to keep things as they were. And such attitudes still exist to this VERY DAY. If not for a boardroom Civil War at Disney, Perlmutter would have prevented the making of Black Panther or Captain Marvel (and seeing the reaction to that movie tells me that it’s not just Perlmutter that holds some biases against female heroes). That’s just one very prominent case of a person in power actively fighting against diversity in lead roles.

This isn’t just in comics or superhero movies, it even extends to stuff like horror movies when the black character almost always used to get killed off first and in very gruesome ways. Folks might not agree but it just speaks to an attitude of a lot of people not really caring about seeing black people get killed which unfortunately extends to real life. Why? Because they can’t break away from ridiculous upbringing and stand up to a culture that reinforced this nonsense in the past.

I don’t like the politics in comics discussion because it’s a very complicated discussion. And for folks that say kids don’t care that heroes don’t look like them, beyond a certain point and age it’s not true. It’s a very complex discussion but the long and short of it is, people should be depicted and treated fairly regardless of race, gender and/or color. Treating any character that isn’t a straight white make as an “other” is part of reason why minorities haven’t traditionally been treated well in superhero comics.

Just one word for these posts: Bravo!

[SecretWarrior]

deleted post - wrong thread