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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Default Best close quarters combat with superman

    As the title suggests,post the best close quarters fights with best choreography.it can be from anywhere and any medium .

  2. #2
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Close quarters is a tricky term because his arena is completely huge. He's able to use various powers and tricks in an instant, so I don't know if you mean hand to hand.

    Here's a pretty sweet Tomoe Nage, and a close range blast (heat vision and his laser blasts are separate but interchangeable really)






    I can imagine it's the case for a lot of people that in screen is just better. All of what you see automatically has choreography because of how it flows vs static art conveying a scene in 2D. The Golden age cartoons and Man of Steel were great to me in that regard.

    But I like the quality of hand drawn art and being able to scan a page with my eye own my own time in any direction, instead of watching something play out in one direction.

    Between Kelly and Loeb they beefed up the order for big fight scenes. But historically I think Bogdanove, Byrne, Swan and Garcia Lopez (in no order) did the best scenes, while Byrne and Adams drew the hardest hits. John Sikela deserves a real nod for what he was able to do in his time. Not talking about the "most important" but usually the opposite, as Swan would do a regular fight better than it had any right to be.

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  3. #3
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Here are 3 of my favourite instances of Superman using skillful and creative close quarters combat:

    1) Superman vs Mongul & Bizarro, Superman: The Man of Steel #131: https://imgur.com/gallery/rzDAmOK

    Clark uses strategic thinking and his previous training with Mongul II to outmaneveur two of his most powerful rogues. Seeing Superman ghost all over Mongul's and utilise Muhammed Ali's Rope a Dope tactic to wear Mongul down is one of my favourite examples of Clark's strategic mind. He may not be on the level of Bruce and Diana but Clark can be a tactical fighter.

    2) Superman vs Commander Gor, Superman: World of New Krypton #3: https://imgur.com/a/xb6CV

    Clark allows Gor to wail on him then uses pressure points to disable Gor completely before taking Gor down with a super punch.

    3) Superman vs Wraith, Superman Unchained #8: https://imgur.com/a/CJ5Tq

    A really cool fight in the Earth's core where Superman uses his superior experience to overcome Wraith's superior strength and power. Clark uses his cape to pull Wraith into joint locks and hangs on for dear life even when Wraith smashes him against the cave's wall. Clark wrestles Wraith to the ground for the win with some hits on the way down. Overall one of my favourite fights from the New 52 and one of my favourite fights in comics.

  4. #4
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Jim Lee does that so well, especially with Snyder. For Tomorrow looked about as good.

    I spent a good bit of time this morning thinking about the battles that define his skill set. He probably wins by TKO or a Plan B more often than he fights to the finish. Of the KO wins, it's either swarming with several big and hard punches or biding his time for a quick one hit. His heralded powers set half of everyone up for a possum tactic.

    Head on I guess it usually comes down to relatively powerful opponents. Romita though, I think broke the mold with his Year One fight against the soldiers on the beach.

    I'll always wish Breyfogle got in because he was the best in comics.
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  5. #5
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Personally, That mongol and bizzaro fight is more interesting to me than the jim lee one or new krypton one. It is more creative with the arsenal superman has. Wraith fight is ok. I would have added more grappling. The new krypton fight was basically superman pulling a neji without the speed or precision. Its just look dull comparatively. I would have added a couple of more wing chun shortranged punches and palm strikes from taichi.
    Essentially, picture the white guy in this as superman.

  6. #6
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    The American comics and cartoon model is pretty behind in a number of ways that end up making the action less intense. With the exception of a Karb Brak or Doomsday taking a few issues (and usually only have filled with the fight anyway) a fight gets maybe three pages from people who largely don't reference a hint of actual fighting.

    Superman is blessed and cursed with being at the highest level. Unfortunately it inhibits his ability to get better. But it also makes it easier for him to get by where a Batman would have the pressure of having really good looking art and storytelling making his fights look up to par. Mostly it's all just the same men and women who do Superman.

    He also is at a power level where he can compare to Goku with merely the dedication of a college martial arts club member in boxing and judo... while holding back. Generally the comparisons out there don't have him in Kenshiro mode.



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    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    The fights from Man of Steel are top-notch.


  8. #8
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    The American comics and cartoon model is pretty behind in a number of ways that end up making the action less intense. With the exception of a Karb Brak or Doomsday taking a few issues (and usually only have filled with the fight anyway) a fight gets maybe three pages from people who largely don't reference a hint of actual fighting.

    Superman is blessed and cursed with being at the highest level. Unfortunately it inhibits his ability to get better. But it also makes it easier for him to get by where a Batman would have the pressure of having really good looking art and storytelling making his fights look up to par. Mostly it's all just the same men and women who do Superman.

    He also is at a power level where he can compare to Goku with merely the dedication of a college martial arts club member in boxing and judo... while holding back. Generally the comparisons out there don't have him in Kenshiro mode.



    That doesn't matter, he has potential. He can absorb like a sponge. A neji like fightstyle which is a combination of taichi, wingchun is what was hinted at in new krypton. It was also in one darknights books as well. Seeing as the guy has senses. Him being able to see weakpoints and pressure points is very possible. Once, superman becomes a fighter his movements will be like that of hyuga or otsutsuki. They are basically aliens with speed, strength and 360 xray vision.his powerlevel is inconsequential. These guys basically gods and demons themselves.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-19-2020 at 09:38 PM.

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    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    But all of that is irrelevant as Neji operates in a world where people "play fair." Everything revolves around ninjutsu so he doesn't have to diversify his skill set. No one counts on Neji or even a Hokage to evacuate a nuclear plant in another country as it's exploding, stop a planet from eating another planet, or drive off a being outside of the laws of his own dimension. It's all just ninja problems so all they have to do is focus on being a stronger ninja. Whereas either Superman's combat skills are either enough or are completely irrelevant and force him to use different skills.

    There was once a character called Vartox who just had Superman beat in a fight through and through. There was no beating his hyper powers. In Naruto that would be called game over.
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  10. #10
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    But all of that is irrelevant as Neji operates in a world where people "play fair." Everything revolves around ninjutsu so he doesn't have to diversify his skill set. No one counts on Neji or even a Hokage to evacuate a nuclear plant in another country as it's exploding, stop a planet from eating another planet, or drive off a being outside of the laws of his own dimension. It's all just ninja problems so all they have to do is focus on being a stronger ninja. Whereas either Superman's combat skills are either enough or are completely irrelevant and force him to use different skills.

    There was once a character called Vartox who just had Superman beat in a fight through and through. There was no beating his hyper powers. In Naruto that would be called game over.
    How is it playing fair? There were guys using tech. Everything works with chakra, not ninjutsu.There is difference. Every kryptonIan works with solar energy. Did you know in yoga(where chakra concept is from) they salute the sun as the power source to all life on earth? Anyways, sasuke just had to evacuate an entire stadium full of people and naruto directly shielded, also tanked a nuclear equivalent blast himself. Superman having wingchun is very much foreseeable. Wingchun is basically Chinese boxing with shortranged fast punches. Taichi has alot about grappling and using palm strikes so that blows aren't lethal. Clark likes shove people that he doesn't want to hurt. If superman has fighting style, this makes sense. What skill does superman use? I haven't seen any. He basically punches people whaling around most of the time. It's not like there are intricate systems where superman uses fire to beat water or enhancing ability to fight transmutter or using ko, gyo.. Etc. Naruto, hxh.. Etc ain't dragon ball. He doesn't even consider to have protection for kryptonite for himself. Besides, i was just pointing to fighting style and choreography of Clark's movement. Not mechanics of his world.

    Well, if someone beats you he beats you. It's not like naruto doesn't have his fair share of L' s. He survives cause someone rescues him or dumb luck or pity of the opponent. They are protagonists so they survive . The difference between superman and these guys is that these guys actually feel like they are trying . They come up with strategies as well to fight foes more powerful people . Just in that fight, alone naruto and sasuke would have gotten their asses handed to them.Superman on the other hand comes up with simplistic way to beat his opponents and we are supposed to clap for him. He basically wears a tin can suit to fight parasite in dcau, which then gets torn of. By some dumb luck parasite absorbs kryptonite. Yeah! Great "plan". Anyways, i was only pointing out the choreography. Lee was basically tring to channel nerve strikes in chinese martial arts(movements are very similar) . Hence, me referring neji.Hyuga's are based on chinese. Their clothing, fighting style.. Etc are all based on chinese style, not japanese.They are also aliens with xray vision.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-20-2020 at 04:48 AM.

  11. #11
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    The fighting style and choreography involve the mechanics of his world, though. That's why I say what he does isn't limited to his skill. If the power of the sun is the equivalent of chakra, then he transcends that by dealing with threats that don't depend on sunlight. Mxy, Dominus, and the Monitors are on a different level. Among similar characters Faora, Vartox, and Zod are better fighters he can get past without becoming a better fighter himself.

    Your real comparison would have to be in the range between Batman and Thor though, because manga and American superheroes work differently in choreography. There's no episode of Batman or X-Men where a character engages in close quarters for episodes on end.
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  12. #12
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    The fighting style and choreography involve the mechanics of his world, though. That's why I say what he does isn't limited to his skill. If the power of the sun is the equivalent of chakra, then he transcends that by dealing with threats that don't depend on sunlight. Mxy, Dominus, and the Monitors are on a different level. Among similar characters Faora, Vartox, and Zod are better fighters he can get past without becoming a better fighter himself.

    Your real comparison would have to be in the range between Batman and Thor though, because manga and American superheroes work. As differently in choreography. There's no episode of Batman or X-Men where a character engages in close quarters for episodes on end.
    That's not what i would call transcending. So he fights people with different powersource.So? yet,all he does is punch and whale around to beat them. Mxy is a magical puzzle or plot device and only exception . There are things like that in anime's as well. Something that cannot be punched out. That's a different kind of game or test. As for the monitors they aren't exactly punch proof. Superman beat one of them with a hook(sun boost).He beats both faora and zod constantly without any plans and any effort to learn anything new or to get stronger. And Why can't superman be better fighter by actually earning it? Is there something stopping him?as for vartox, he is no different than a martians or kryptonians. Superman still fights the dude with a punch. It's different deal,that he is set up to be more powerful. That just means, clark then he gets stronger himself or he finds otherways. Anime guys do the same thing,with better strategies and mind games in the fights. Another difference is, clark never does the former(get stronger or learn new things). I mean, orochimaru, pain, itachi, the entire akatsuki weren't exactly beaten cause naruto or sasuke punched real hard, something superman does quite often.how did he beat doomday? Exactly. You basically equated naruto to dbz. That's where the problem is. I will admit hxh is superior in every way to the melodramatic copy i. E naruto. But, naruto isn't exactly a slouch. Both of them dwarf superman in terms of action. That's just how it is.

    Anyhow, all i was saying is that the above technique is basically the same as neji's or momoshiki's. But, this is just done better. In new krypton it isn't exactly hand to hand. Why? The opponent is basically a punching bag, which clark was at first. There weren't any adapting to movements from each side. So it was no fun.

  13. #13
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's not what i would call transcending. So he fights people with different powersource.So? yet,all he does is punch and whale around to beat them.
    He doesn't, and that could be part of why there aren't many other people responding here. Choreography referring to fighting doesn't hold much significance with Superman. If we're talking similarly powered characters he's overcharged Oxymaxias to win, drained the radiation out of Rampage to win. Daxamites, pantheons, and others have been driven away by manipulating their allergies. Energy absorbers, he's used a force field device to beat Psiphon, worked Parasite over with a staff. Vyn was defeated while playing for keeps. Dominus had his reality shattered by Torquasm.


    Mxy is a magical puzzle or plot device and only exception . There are things like that in anime's as well. Something that cannot be punched out.
    His archenemy can't be punched out. That's a pretty different position from most others.

    how did he beat doomday? Exactly.
    Punching didn't work at all given the result: a stronger Doomsday from adaptation. In the rematches he pushed him into the big bang and when that didn't work, stuck him in an endless loop of teleportation on the moon.


    I think you'd be disappointed by Superman's choreography given the stuff you like, but he's probably being underrated quite a bit here.
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    He doesn't, and that could be part of why there aren't many other people responding here. Choreography referring to fighting doesn't hold much significance with Superman. If we're talking similarly powered characters he's overcharged Oxymaxias to win, drained the radiation out of Rampage to win. Daxamites, pantheons, and others have been driven away by manipulating their allergies. Energy absorbers, he's used a force field device to beat Psiphon, worked Parasite over with a staff. Vyn was defeated while playing for keeps. Dominus had his reality shattered by Torquasm.



    His archenemy can't be punched out. That's a pretty different position from most others.



    Punching didn't work at all given the result: a stronger Doomsday from adaptation. In the rematches he pushed him into the big bang and when that didn't work, stuck him in an endless loop of teleportation on the moon.


    I think you'd be disappointed by Superman's choreography given the stuff you like, but he's probably being underrated quite a bit here.
    If you ask me all of those are simplistic fight strategies, exploit opponents weakness. Standard tactic,if the opponent are an idiots. I will admit batman writer do that same shtick with superman. But, i would want something different from superman. How about some sun tzu philosophy in story? Where opponents are actually as strategically sound to actually pose a threat and do harm. It isn't just some " i choose an electric type against a water type". Even pokemon is better than that.

    Who lex? He is perfectly punchable. Mxy is an archenemy? I don't think so.Vartox is as well. Superman would have to get more things in his arsenal is all

    Again, he trapped a unkillable brainless monster in a loop. Same tactic and out witting that thing isn't exactly a mark of greatness. Itachi did it for just getting intel. Madara basically tamed the immortal beast. These weren't exactly "conflicts" or fights either..It's very standard tactic.Nothing to right home about or find entertaining. Battle tactics can be interesting thing. If done right. Here it isn't. superman would need to actually fight doomsday. So how did you prove your point? It's like hiding yourself in the blind spot of the opponent. That isn't impressive. Succeeding in it, while the opponent actually counters it, is.

    I find any kind conflict worthwhile where two contemporaries lock horn to give a great spectacle in whichever way mental, physically, philosophical.. Etc. But, the battle should be entertaining. Its not like read death note and expect L to beat up kira. I emphasised on choreography because this is about that in particular and movements. That's it. So i don't why we are having a discussion on battle strategies ? be that as a may, Superman books are all about disabling your opponent using your wit, your compassion , understanding opponents psychology and using resources(yeah! I seriously doubt it) .That still doesn't mean superman doesn't have to punch people. Even batman needs to punch people . Also, i am not underrating superman.Just an honest opinion.I haven't read a blow my mind entertaining fight with superman to date. Even when he it comes to strategies its largely underwhelming.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-20-2020 at 01:12 PM.

  15. #15
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Personally, That mongol and bizzaro fight is more interesting to me than the jim lee one or new krypton one. It is more creative with the arsenal superman has. Wraith fight is ok. I would have added more grappling. The new krypton fight was basically superman pulling a neji without the speed or precision. Its just look dull comparatively. I would have added a couple of more wing chun shortranged punches and palm strikes from taichi.
    Essentially, picture the white guy in this as superman.
    I chose the Mongul and Bizarro because I liked how Clark prioritised tactics and dodging and weaving over brute force. It is the most creative of the 3 I selected and better fits the question you posed. I think the Wraith fight had enough grappling, personally I would have added more kickboxing moves into Superman's attacks to wear Wraith out. The first half of the fight is bombastic and epic so that more than makes up for it in my opinion. As for the New Krypton fight, I think that's down to the style of the artist, you don't seem to like the lack of expression or fluidity of the punches and kicks that were exchanged. Pete Woods isn't as fluid in his pencils as someone like Jorge Jiminez.

    It would be interesting if Clark used more wing chun or aikido techniques in his fights, but the fact is like Kuwagaton mentioned, Can I ask why you selected the Naruto/Sasuke vs Momoshiki fight from Boruto as an example of how Superman should fight? It's an interesting choice and I'm curious why you think this could fit Clark's style of combat.

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