How well has DC handled hero mantles?

[Electricmastro]

A thread about hero mantles originally taken on by one character, but were later taken on by other characters, whether they be relatives, associates, alternate-universe counterparts, and so on, and how well you think DC has handled and written them, and why.

Examples of the sorts of hero mantles I’m referring to can include:

Aqualad: Garth -> Jackson Hyde

The Atom: Al Pratt -> Ryan Choi

Batgirl: Barbara Gordon -> Cassandra Cain

Batman: Bruce Wayne -> Terry McGinnis

Crimson Avenger: Lee Travis -> Jill Carlyle

Doctor Fate: Kent Nelson -> Khalid Nassour

Doctor Mid-Nite: Charles McNider -> Beth Chapel

The Flash: Jay Garrick -> Bart Allen

Green Arrow: Oliver Queen -> Connor Hawke

Green Lantern: Alan Scott -> Jessica Cruz

Hawk and Dove: Hank Hall and Don Hall -> Holly Granger and Dawn Granger

Hourman: Rex Tyler -> Rick Tyler

Manhunter: Paul Kirk -> Kate Spencer

Mister Terrific: Terry Sloane -> Michael Holt

Robin: Dick Grayson -> Damian Wayne

Speedy: Roy Harper -> Mia Dearden

Starman: Ted Knight -> Jack Knight

Superboy: Clark Kent -> Jonathan Kent

Wildcat: Ted Grant -> Yolanda Montez

Wonder Girl: Donna Troy -> Cassie Sandsmark

[Noodle]

The transitions are always hard to do, as there are always fans of the old character that won't like the change. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There's no real universal way to do it.

The ones that always comes off best (to me) is when the hero voluntarily hands it to the next generation and helps them learn it. Things like Batgirl, Starman and JSA. Fans of the original still get to read that character while you also get the new one.

It's often when the old character dies or goes evil and a new one takes their spot that tend to get the most hate (and justifiably so in certain cases).

[Vampire Savior]

I believe DC has handled this piss poor because the character that gave the mantle up for whatever reason almost always comes to take it right back, and then you have multiple characters figuratively competing with each other for attention. DC has repeated this problem over and over again, and while some fans try to spin it as a good thing, what you often end up with is dissatisfied fans who are at each others' throats.

Examples of this concept being handled better are Power Rangers and the Belmont Clan from Castlevania. Power Rangers has done it clunky sometimes, like when the original Mighty Morphin' Rangers were suddenly replaced, which was due to behind the scenes drama and shenanigans, not the writing. But when Tommy passed the torch to T.J. it was handled really well. I do, however, miss the days when Ranger teams would last for more than one season. So, if I am going to complain about something, it's that I often wish characters stuck around longer. It's kind of hard for some of these newer characters to become the legends that the Zordon Rangers are when they're here and then gone and you can set your watch to when it will happen. But! That's a whole other topic.

[Vakanai]

Not well - the fact they're considered mantels is the problem. No legacy mantels! A hero dies or retires then so should their title. Just my preference on it.

[Dred]

Not well - the fact they're considered mantels is the problem. No legacy mantels! A hero dies or retires then so should their title. Just my preference on it.

So do you think The Flash and Green Lantern titles should've died in the Golden Age?

[Frontier]

Examples of this concept being handled better are Power Rangers and the Belmont Clan from Castlevania. Power Rangers has done it clunky sometimes, like when the original Mighty Morphin' Rangers were suddenly replaced, which was due to behind the scenes drama and shenanigans, not the writing. But when Tommy passed the torch to T.J. it was handled really well. I do, however, miss the days when Ranger teams would last for more than one season. So, if I am going to complain about something, it's that I often wish characters stuck around longer. It's kind of hard for some of these newer characters to become the legends that the Zordon Rangers are when they're here and then gone and you can set your watch to when it will happen. But! That's a whole other topic.

The last time I remember a Ranger team getting to embody two consecutive Sentai's after Space was the Megaforce Rangers.

[Lee]

It works best when:

1. The previous version wasn't popular or well known.
2. The new version has a self-contained origin/premise.

Characters like Connor Hawke and Kyle Rayner have too much baggage right out the gate. When those kinds of characters become the rule rather than the exception, the DC Universe collapses under its own weight.

[Lee Stone]

DC handles it pretty bad.

IMHO, only obscure characters should really get new versions. Simply because the first one didn't catch on.
Characters that most people have either forgotten or never heard of.

When well received characters have this done to them, you'll have readers that won't welcome it.
Especially if the previous hero was last seen going about his/her regular life and the creator of the new version artificially removes the original and puts the replacement on a pedestal by killing the first one, disposing of them in some way that would be hard to come back from or turns them into a villain (extra points if they commit murder).

[SiegePerilous02]

They handle it well sometimes. But like a lot of good things, it's a story telling device that gets abused and too often repeated.
It is unfortunately one of the more reliable ways to give new, more diverse characters a leg up, but it also leads to several tedious fandom wars.

I also don't buy the frequent "DC is all about legacy" argument. It didn't really become so until the late 80s/90s, and even then the most prolific characters to come out of the company are not legacies.

[jetengine]

It works best when:

1. The previous version wasn't popular or well known.
2. The new version has a self-contained origin/premise.

Characters like Connor Hawke and Kyle Rayner have too much baggage right out the gate. When those kinds of characters become the rule rather than the exception, the DC Universe collapses under its own weight.

Not sure about Connor but Kyle doesnt.

"The last guy went insane and killed everyone, your the last guy, I hope you do well" its a very common trope

[Dred]

They handle it well sometimes. But like a lot of good things, it's a story telling device that gets abused and too often repeated.
It is unfortunately one of the more reliable ways to give new, more diverse characters a leg up, but it also leads to several tedious fandom wars.

I also don't buy the frequent "DC is all about legacy" argument. It didn't really become so until the late 80s/90s, and even then the most prolific characters to come out of the company are not legacies.

There was a pretty long span where a lot of DC's top titles featured Barry, Hal, and the Teen Titans. The reputation comes from a time when DC was significantly more legacy based than Marvel, who didn't really even try to do any significant legacy stuff until relatively recently.

Nothing supplants the Trinity, but hell, even Batman has had a Robin for nearly as long as there's been a Batman. Superman had Supergirl show up very early on. For a large chunk of the silver and bronze age DC was flooded with legacy characters. The stuff in the 80s/90s was more direct replacement, but legacy isn't always direct replacement.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Like most literary tools, it can be done well, and it can not be done well. There were some mantles in the 1980s, though mostly for the Earth 2 characters. But DC became all about mantles and next-gen characters in the 90s as a means to retool their aging superhero line. It worked pretty well in several cases, too - Wally, Kyle, Jack Knight, etc.

But like anything, it got played out. They still use the trope, albeit in different ways. It'll never be like the 80s or 90s again.

[SiegePerilous02]

There was a pretty long span where a lot of DC's top titles featured Barry, Hal, and the Teen Titans. The reputation comes from a time when DC was significantly more legacy based than Marvel, who didn't really even try to do any significant legacy stuff until relatively recently.

Nothing supplants the Trinity, but hell, even Batman has had a Robin for nearly as long as there's been a Batman. Superman had Supergirl show up very early on. For a large chunk of the silver and bronze age DC was flooded with legacy characters. The stuff in the 80s/90s was more direct replacement, but legacy isn't always direct replacement.

That's the thing though: nobody can really agree on what legacy means. Most among fandom seem to agree that it's direct replacement, and that's more what took shape in the 80s/90s. But you mention Barry and Hal, and they were not these types of legacies back then, they had to be retconned into being such. They were alternate universe versions/revamps after the original versions fell by the wayside a while before, but the previous continuity still existed elsewhere in the Multiverse. Barry continued Jay's numbering, but Hal did not continue Alan's, so there isn't any consistency. You can't really consider them legacies unless you consider the Silver Age Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman & Robin as legacies of themselves from the Golden Age, and that wouldn't make any sense.

The Teen Titans are not legacies at that time either. Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad and Speedy weren't sharing their names with anyone else to my knowledge and were the first to have their respective names (barring that obscure issue where Bruce was a Robin in his younger years, but nobody cares about that). It wasn't a given they would take on the mantles of their mentors outside imaginary stories. Donna as usual is a clusterf**k accident. Supergirl was never a legacy, she was a distaff counterpart. The rest of the major Titans in the Bronze Age were not legacies (Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Gar was chosen by Perez and Wolfman because he could represent the Doom Patrol without being a mini-version of someone else, etc.). Of the major characters in that era, its Barbara Gordon who was sort of inheriting the mantle of someone else from the same continuity.

Again this is why some of the fandom discussions about legacies can get tedious, because the discussion can change depending on what era we're talking about. And regardless, a lot of the characters that sell the most merchandise and pay the bills are the Trinity, the Joker and Harley, who are not legacies.

Marvel was probably doing more legacy/universe progression as we know it now during that time, since their Golden and Silver Age eras were in the same continuity with each other (with characters like Cap linking them), not on separate Earths.

[Vakanai]

So do you think The Flash and Green Lantern titles should've died in the Golden Age?

Technically those weren't mantels being passed on, they were reimagined reboots. Jay and Alan didn't die or retire, they basically never existed, until the Two Flashes thing established the multiverse and they existed. But neither passed on a mantle.

[phantom1592]

Not sure about Connor but Kyle doesnt.

"The last guy went insane and killed everyone, your the last guy, I hope you do well" its a very common trope

No.... Kyle showing up meant that FOUR Green Lantern books were devestated. He instantly got the hate not only of people who were Hal fans... but Guy, John, and the rest of the corps too.

That in itself is a LOT of baggage to deal with. Regardless of how things turn out... it starts out behind the eight ball.

Technically those weren't mantels being passed on, they were reimagined reboots. Jay and Alan didn't die or retire, they basically never existed, until the Two Flashes thing established the multiverse and they existed. But neither passed on a mantle.

Exactly.

I honestly don't think the 'legacy' thing really started until Tim Drake. Wally came first of course... but he was pretty much all by himself. Jason was the second robin, but he didn't spend all day wondering if he could measure up to the 'REAL' Robin... he just 'was'. Tim on the other hand was immediately put into the 'weight of legacy' and what it means to be robin... and to wear the suit for all those who have before...

The Wally surpassed Barry... and Superman was replaced by 4 guys and Batman was replaced... obviously temporarily but the idea of 'what the mantle means' became drummed upon all the time... then Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Wally West were all replaced... and the age of legacy became the norm.

But for the longest time... it really wasn't a 'thing', even when it could have been. Hal and Barry never considered themselves mantles or legacies of the GA group... they were their own cahracters with their own backstories.