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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, this is one of my big ones. Season 7 is worse than 6, because even though season 6 did dumb stuff and got ridiculously dark I can appreciate the attempts it made at tackling Buffy's depression and other things. But season 7 retroactively lets it down by not adequately building them back up because it had too many plates in the air. Chief among them is having our titular hero get sexually assaulted in the previous season and then barely touching on her feelings in the last season as they instead coddle her attacker and focus on his feelings. What a lousy note for our feminist icon to go out on and one of the things that most dates the show. Angel's stuff was bad too, but it at least rebounded in the final season.
    I read that Joss showed up just as they were introducing Nathan Fillon's character, and there was talk about a multiple episode arc where the character shows up in Buffy's life and we waffle about whether or not he's an ally or a potential foe, and Joss was like, 'People! We have like five hours left! Establish that he's a villain in the first 5 minutes!'

    And yeah, after season 3, I think it started veering off the rails (too many 'funny' or sexy demons like Anya, Spike and Clem*, muddling the narrative), and by season 7, Buffy was a pale shadow of what it had been.

    *(And I'm the biggest fan of Anya, ever, but she had no business being accepted into the gang. A serial killer that temporarily can't kill, but still reminisces fondly of those days? Yeah, no. Those are the kind of people that get staked by Slayers, not invited over for Thanksgiving.)

  2. #17
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I don't know what the contracts were, but it's interesting how little blame HBO shoulders in all of it. Were they unable to continue the show without B/W as showrunners? Was there no way they could have talked B/W into another season of their network defining show of that decade?

    I'm also surprised nobody was able to explain to B/W that they were about to 100% not just not stick the landing, but not even really come close to the mat on such a huge, career defining, and possibly career ending show.

    They'll never have to worry for money again, so working probably isn't their big concern, but does anyone really trust them anymore? Whatever they do next, I'm sitting it out until the reviews are good. God forbid it's another TV show, because I'll be sitting it out until the reviews of the ending are good! I'm not spending another 7 years just to have the showrunners get bored and end it with a "good enough".
    I feel like HBO probably saw B/W as the guys behind their big show, and therefore trusted that they were making the right call.

    I wish they just handed the show running responsibilities off to someone else and continued on as executive producers, if they were really that tired of it. So much in the last 3 seasons felt insanely rushed.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I hardly see how the Samaritan arc was an error. The entire series was predicated on the dangers of AI. You can only go so far then, with an AI designed only to protect.

    The show didn't lose it's way, it became more itself
    Even if you liked that story, it could hardly be argued that it was a good move in general.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I read that Joss showed up just as they were introducing Nathan Fillon's character, and there was talk about a multiple episode arc where the character shows up in Buffy's life and we waffle about whether or not he's an ally or a potential foe, and Joss was like, 'People! We have like five hours left! Establish that he's a villain in the first 5 minutes!'

    And yeah, after season 3, I think it started veering off the rails (too many 'funny' or sexy demons like Anya, Spike and Clem*, muddling the narrative), and by season 7, Buffy was a pale shadow of what it had been.

    *(And I'm the biggest fan of Anya, ever, but she had no business being accepted into the gang. A serial killer that temporarily can't kill, but still reminisces fondly of those days? Yeah, no. Those are the kind of people that get staked by Slayers, not invited over for Thanksgiving.)
    I think Joss was around earlier in season 7, I know he wrote the season premiere, parts of "Conversations With Dead People" and re-wrote Spike's monologue in "Beneath You" to be more sympathetic towards him. The latter sets a bad precedent for what we get later in the season.

    Anya was great, but yeah she does kind of strain the suspension of disbelief. As does Spike joining the gang with the chip and Buffy not staking him, even after he betrays them to Adam and proves he's still dangerous. Also no way would he be stupid enough to turn to Buffy and Giles for help in that scenario, but...well.

    I thought seasons 4 and 5 were still great overall, but the Scooby Gang from the earlier seasons was just better than the later incarnation (save Tara, she was cool and the only likable person after a certain point). Doesn't help that half of them went over to LA and became better characters as a result.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonAnders View Post
    Even if you liked that story, it could hardly be argued that it was a good move in general.
    Why?

    It fit the themes of the series, and frankly, better to end the series than lumber on like a zombie ala NCIS

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Why?

    It fit the themes of the series, and frankly, better to end the series than lumber on like a zombie ala NCIS
    Because the show had hit its stride, was very popular, and then overnight descended into something no one wanted to see. It was on course to run five to seven seasons and they pissed it away with an unnecessary new direction. As for fitting the themes, I disagree. It was about saving people. Then it became about saving themselves.

  7. #22
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    With a season to a season and a half left in Burn Notice, they decided to completely abandon the "Michael saving people" format and had him focus 100% on getting back into the organization. He spent more time helping arms dealers in those episodes than people who needed help and it nearly ruined the series for me.

    Also when Supernatural completely threw out all of season 6 in the first episodes of season 7. While the Leviathan story arc was more enjoyable than the season 6 one, it was a very clear sign that they had no idea what they were doing.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, this is one of my big ones. Season 7 is worse than 6, because even though season 6 did dumb stuff and got ridiculously dark I can appreciate the attempts it made at tackling Buffy's depression and other things. But season 7 retroactively lets it down by not adequately building them back up because it had too many plates in the air. Chief among them is having our titular hero get sexually assaulted in the previous season and then barely touching on her feelings in the last season as they instead coddle her attacker and focus on his feelings. What a lousy note for our feminist icon to go out on and one of the things that most dates the show. Angel's stuff was bad too, but it at least rebounded in the final season.
    Everytime I see someone get angry about demon soulless Spike almost raping Buffy I wonder if they were watching the same show I was because they never mention how Willow did in fact rape Tara earlier in the season. Actual rape by a character with a soul who is supposedly one of the good guys is far worse than an attempted rape by a soulless vampire.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    I loved Buffy so much as a whole that even the "bad" episodes are just part of an awesome whole for me. I don't skip any of them when I do a re-watch.

    Joss was mostly absent for season 6 except for the musical episode, but nothing happened on the show that didn't get his OK. And I'm pretty sure the Potentials in season 7 were his idea, since he gleefully dug into the concept of a Slayer Army with the season 8 comics.
    Make America Good Again.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonAnders View Post
    Because the show had hit its stride, was very popular, and then overnight descended into something no one wanted to see. It was on course to run five to seven seasons and they pissed it away with an unnecessary new direction. As for fitting the themes, I disagree. It was about saving people. Then it became about saving themselves.
    From the very beginning, the series was about the dangers of AI.

    I feel like you're complaining that the series didn't sell out

    It ran a tighter ship than virtually any other series of it's kind, stayed close to the core concept and told an overall, complete story. So it didn't last long enough to fall into seasonal rot? I'm not complaining, and I watched it religiously.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Panfoot's Avatar
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    The X Files and I can sum it up in one word: William.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Everytime I see someone get angry about demon soulless Spike almost raping Buffy I wonder if they were watching the same show I was because they never mention how Willow did in fact rape Tara earlier in the season. Actual rape by a character with a soul who is supposedly one of the good guys is far worse than an attempted rape by a soulless vampire.
    What makes you think I'm wild about what Willow did? She frankly didn't deserve Tara after that point and they ruined a great relationship with that storyline. Show deserves to be called out for both instances.

    The lack of soul doesn't matter. There isn't much distinction between his two personas, he's the same douche bag. The creepy little pantie sniffer does a big romantic gesture to weasel his way back into his victim's life by making her feel responsible for him...and it works. "Bad boy changes for the love of a good woman" is one of the worst story telling cliches.

  13. #28
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    killing off Sterling Archer and then bothering to continue with the series. seems like they should have just killed him and left it at that. Dreamland was... sorta okay... but I gave up on the tropical island season before the first episode even finished. Archer, as a show, had completely lost it's way and become fairly dull and unfunny.

    if they had wanted to keep going then they shouldn't have bothered with the shock ending of him appearing to be dead to begin with.

    the fact that they did it anyways means that they should have either left him dead OR had him recover from the coma at some point in the subsequent season.

    Archer is so out-to-lunch/trapped in his own bizarre alternate reality sometimes that you don't even need him to be in a coma to come up with alternate universe versions of the character. I mean, he's not as prone to fantasy as the main character of "Calvin and Hobbes"... but he does let his mind wander a lot.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    killing off Sterling Archer and then bothering to continue with the series. seems like they should have just killed him and left it at that. Dreamland was... sorta okay... but I gave up on the tropical island season before the first episode even finished. Archer, as a show, had completely lost it's way and become fairly dull and unfunny.

    if they had wanted to keep going then they shouldn't have bothered with the shock ending of him appearing to be dead to begin with.

    the fact that they did it anyways means that they should have either left him dead OR had him recover from the coma at some point in the subsequent season.

    Archer is so out-to-lunch/trapped in his own bizarre alternate reality sometimes that you don't even need him to be in a coma to come up with alternate universe versions of the character. I mean, he's not as prone to fantasy as the main character of "Calvin and Hobbes"... but he does let his mind wander a lot.
    He woke up at the end of the last season

  15. #30
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    What other projects? Last thing I heard was an AWFUL show about alt history US slavery?
    They were working on their own Star Wars trilogy. They ended up abandoning that when Netflix offered them a truckload of money to develop four projects for them.

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