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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Default Hippoltya and Phillppus

    What do you guys think? Lovers or just regular Amazons.

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    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Something that's always perplexed me is what status does Polly's consort get? Are they treated the way the First Lady is here in the United States? And if so, considering Amazons are immortal, does that get revoked or do you keep it for life? It's Paradise Island, so I imagine Poly's paramour probably gets treated as well as anyone else since, well, the quality of life there is pretty great all things considered.

    It's fine either way. To be honest the only one I get a little weirded out by is Diana and other Amazons by virtue of them having been adults when she was a literal wailing baby, but that time accounts for, what, less than half a percent of their lifespan? It's fine.

    I just don't know what argument there could be against Hippolyta having a relationship with an Amazon since she's a mother, so it's not like she'd be impartial if she was celibate. If she can be a just, impartial ruler with respect to her daughter, she can be with her lover as well. I only read Rucka's run and some stuff by Wilson/Orlando, so as far as I know in this continuity, Phillipus is cool.

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  4. #4
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Something that's always perplexed me is what status does Polly's consort get? Are they treated the way the First Lady is here in the United States? And if so, considering Amazons are immortal, does that get revoked or do you keep it for life? It's Paradise Island, so I imagine Poly's paramour probably gets treated as well as anyone else since, well, the quality of life there is pretty great all things considered.
    The First Lady of USA is probably a terrible model here. In lots of ways, the US presidency was shaped by the monarchies of mid-late 18th century (of which France was the example everyone looked to), and then further shaped by the extreme patriarchism of the 19th century.

    The role of family in various monarchies (or other autocratic societies, though here I want to fill in that I don't view the Themysciran monarchy as anything similar to how we think of monarchies today) tend to vary depending on both time and the personal relations between the family members. Someone like Henry VIII is probably the worst possible example.

    I can see two probable models for Philippus. One is that her job is to be the Amazon general (or whatever else is chosen). That she is the lover/consort of Hippolyta is neither here nor there, and is strictly a private thing between the two.

    The other is that Philippus is Hippolyta's most trusted deputy. The most trusted envoys of a king in the early modern times were his own sons or half-brothers, and I believe that was true earlier as well. She will lead important efforts that Hippolyta does not have the attention to get at herself. Think of Hillary Clinton working on health care reform during Bill Clinton's presidency.

    Of the two, I prefer the first one. I think it best fits that the Amazons do things differently, and I also think it best fits my idea of Amazon society as not being monarchical as we think of it. Rather, I imagine that they have an elective monarchy where the monarch plays an important but still limited role.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The First Lady of USA is probably a terrible model here. In lots of ways, the US presidency was shaped by the monarchies of mid-late 18th century (of which France was the example everyone looked to), and then further shaped by the extreme patriarchism of the 19th century.

    The role of family in various monarchies (or other autocratic societies, though here I want to fill in that I don't view the Themysciran monarchy as anything similar to how we think of monarchies today) tend to vary depending on both time and the personal relations between the family members. Someone like Henry VIII is probably the worst possible example.

    I can see two probable models for Philippus. One is that her job is to be the Amazon general (or whatever else is chosen). That she is the lover/consort of Hippolyta is neither here nor there, and is strictly a private thing between the two.

    The other is that Philippus is Hippolyta's most trusted deputy. The most trusted envoys of a king in the early modern times were his own sons or half-brothers, and I believe that was true earlier as well. She will lead important efforts that Hippolyta does not have the attention to get at herself. Think of Hillary Clinton working on health care reform during Bill Clinton's presidency.

    Of the two, I prefer the first one. I think it best fits that the Amazons do things differently, and I also think it best fits my idea of Amazon society as not being monarchical as we think of it. Rather, I imagine that they have an elective monarchy where the monarch plays an important but still limited role.
    Sure, but I can't think of any model in human history where the consort of the leader of a body of people isn't awarded some degree of status, be it official, social or some such. I didn't really intend for that to be interpreted too deeply, so apologies on that front. I just went with the model of my home country because it's the one I generally know the most about. The family if the people in charge tend to benefit in some way for their relationship to said officials, or at least in any cultures I've read about or encountered.

    It's just, let's say they were together for five hundred years and then break up and Poly finds someone else. Does her former lover retain any special significance, either officially or unofficially? Is it seen as a social step down (not to be ridiculed, mind, though perhaps some may feel that way)? Or is everyone on Themyscira truly equal sans Poly and Diana as a queen and her heir?

    Considering immortality and monarchy are at play, it may not be so easy to discern. Ultimately, it's fiction and Themyscira is supposed to be paradise, so I can understand if everyone (sans perhaps a bad egg or two) is generally groovy enough that it doesn't effect anything, but it is something to ponder from time to time.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-19-2020 at 02:47 AM.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    What do you guys think? Lovers or just regular Amazons.
    Seems they're lovers. Previously only implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Something that's always perplexed me is what status does Polly's consort get? Are they treated the way the First Lady is here in the United States? And if so, considering Amazons are immortal, does that get revoked or do you keep it for life? It's Paradise Island, so I imagine Poly's paramour probably gets treated as well as anyone else since, well, the quality of life there is pretty great all things considered.

    It's fine either way. To be honest the only one I get a little weirded out by is Diana and other Amazons by virtue of them having been adults when she was a literal wailing baby, but that time accounts for, what, less than half a percent of their lifespan? It's fine.

    I just don't know what argument there could be against Hippolyta having a relationship with an Amazon since she's a mother, so it's not like she'd be impartial if she was celibate. If she can be a just, impartial ruler with respect to her daughter, she can be with her lover as well. I only read Rucka's run and some stuff by Wilson/Orlando, so as far as I know in this continuity, Phillipus is cool.
    If Phillipus is Hypolitta's lover she doesn't seem to have a status beyond the regular one as a general, and that's another thing... Even if we're using Ancient Greek culture as a base, since it's patriarchal, as far as I know, there's no example of the rulers taking someone as important as a military general as an official consort.

    Alexander The Great may have been in love with his commander and best friend Hephaestion, but as far as I know, it's not official. Officially they're king and commander, and best friends, and they may bang who knows.

    The lovers of Diana have been depicted as around the same age as her, both in Rebirth and Earth One. I don't know the logistics and I don't know if the authors thought about it, but they're not going the Post Crisis way where she's the only child raised by many adults.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 05-19-2020 at 05:22 PM.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Sure, but I can't think of any model in human history where the consort of the leader of a body of people isn't awarded some degree of status, be it official, social or some such. I didn't really intend for that to be interpreted too deeply, so apologies on that front. I just went with the model of my home country because it's the one I generally know the most about. The family if the people in charge tend to benefit in some way for their relationship to said officials, or at least in any cultures I've read about or encountered.
    Oh, absolutely.

    But here I think we need to look at details. There are difference between privilege, responsibility, and power, and likewise between status and roles. With history, details often matter.

    Are there specific roles that go with being Hippolyta's consort? Most definitely. But I don't think they should define Philippus's status and role in the Amazonian society. At times it is a hat that she has to carry (like at certain ceremonies), other times it is a hat that she and Hippolyta decide she has to carry (like if she is to lead a special project as Hippolyta's deputy), but I imagine that most of the times she should act as her own agent.

    One possible historical model for the relation between Philippus, Hippolyta, and Amazon society to look to might be Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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