Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 345678910 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 138
  1. #91
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    160

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I haven't even seen the show yet because I watch stuff on Netflix and she's already been driven out?

    Unfortunately, the anonymity of the Net has created a whole not so bold environment to unleash bigotry. A lot of people do need to go to private accounts or some sort of situation where someone runs a fan board for them, simply deletes and bans all the bigoted stuff and let's them see and respond to legitimate fans and legitimate criticisms which I consider better than letting them drive you out.
    This sentiment is so mushed together I don't know what you mean. Could you try again please? I think there's something here I genuinely want to understand.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Well, they never made that clear in the movies and I never read any of the novels or comics (just like most people haven't). So, there was no reason to know that.

    Oh, and going back to the Iron Man 3 bit, part of the problem with the Mandarin reveal is that it reinforces the infamous "MCU villain problem". The thing where every villain seems to be an evil version of the hero. Such was the case with the Iron Man series. The villain of the first movie was Obadiah Stane aka Iron Monger, a snarky evil businessman. One of the main villains of Iron Man 2 was Justin Hammer, another snarky evil businessman. The other villain was Whiplash, who physically resembled Iron Man. Then Iron Man 3 introduces The Mandarin who seems different. He's serious, runs a powerful organization and is motivated by his own ideology. It's different, it's interesting, it's . . . fake. The real villain is Aldrich Killian, a snarky evil businessman. Only his business is A.I.M. Yippee. I came away from the series withe the general idea that Iron Man only ever fights people who remind him of himself.
    I’m going to disagree with the first part of the post, but wholeheartedly agree with the second part, so bare with me!

    The PT and Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT may not have explicit dialogue saying they don’t belong to some famous bloodlines... but the sheer number of them, the way Anakin himself is recruited, and what they say in the movies does disprove the idea that you need a famous bloodline to have the Force - especially because, y’know, Anakin himself doesn’t hail from any famous bloodline. The whole idea that TLJ is trying to sell? Already sold by Anakin (and thus Luke) and all the background Jedi.

    Though if someone wants to be pedantic and argue the lack of anything as blunt as outright claiming they don’t have a famous family means something... then I’m going to claim that TLJ treating Luke and Kylo with favoritism isn’t poisoning that message as well. TLJ is a film that oddly enough exiles it’s supposed main characters Rey from the central spotlight as soon as Kylo makes her declare herself not a Skywalker - she doesn’t even get to be tempted about killing or capturing him after he gets knocked out, because TLJ doesn’t really care about non-Skywalker character.

    TLJ is its own liability for its own arguments - sometimes the expectations it subverts and the false advertising It’s accused of is its own.

    But on Iron Man? Oh yeah, Killian and Co. are 100% guilty of the same Marvel villain formula that people were already striating to complain about in Phase 1. That *did* kill the whole point of the bait-and-switch with the “Mandarin”; they used a unconventional twist for a conventional answer. Their red herring was more interesting than their solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    It was really bad before, post- Gamrgate it's impossible for artists on the receiving end of coordinated attacks like that have any presence on the internet and since they're Hollywood actors this will impact how much work they get in their future. This reaction doesn't apply to every actor, women and minorities get the brunt of it. This is a problem having a thick skin won't fix.

    Edit: When they're successful it'll hurt their job opportunities, compare Kelly Marie Tran's scenes in TLJ to TROS.
    The alt-right/incel movement and “professional trolls” are definitely more structured than the support groups and can often overwhelm fan support if there’s any vulnerability in a minority or female actor’s fanbase support. Daisy Ridley also suffered fan abuse, though unlike Tran, she had at least one generally positive reception for a film and seemed surprised at the later vitriol - likely because her race didn’t aggravate assholes while her sex did, while Tran got both barrels of bull. John Boyega had to deal with racist attacks early on, and still had to deal with them getting worse, though they later blended/hid behind Reylo fans looking to attack him at first notice.

    And all that was compounded by the ST films growing less interested in those actors as well, leaving them vulnerable to even worse vitriolic attacks. Tran suffered the worst - getting racist and sexist treatment paired with an unpopular story that didn’t serve her true skills.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  3. #93
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    1,341

    Default

    I liked the Iron Man 3 reveal because now we were getting that the villain was caused by Tony’s flippant past and his pre-Iron Man actions. Where as Obidiah Stane and Whiplash were consequences of Tony’s father past.

    I imagine it will be the same for MCU Spider-Man in that his third movie’s villain, will be a consequence from Peter’s actions. Whereas Vulture and Mysterio were results from his “father figure” Tony’s actions.

    As for TLJ, it moved the characters where they needed to be ahead of the final conclusion.
    I was glad Snoke was killed in TLJ. So we wouldn’t get the predictable third movie big bad display. Unfortunately, which we got anyway with by-the-numbers snidely whiplash Palpatine.

    Kylo killing Snoke and ascending was the most interesting thing about TLJ. And with Luke now gone, it looked like the third movie trilogy wouldn’t be weighed down. It would be the younger characters time to shine. Going against each other.

    To the people complaining that PT background Jedi didn’t have famous bloodlines. That’s not the point. The point is that now we were going to get a non-bloodline (Rey) vs the big bloodline (Kylo) for the third film. Instead we got Rey Palpatine. (No longer the underdog. Now the MAIN pedigree)

    I even liked that Finn killed Phasma in TLJ, but wished they put more emphasis on that. Especially since Rey wasn’t around to help him and take the glory. Finn really shines when he’s not near Rey. Like in TFA, when he’s trying to get to her on Starkiller or all during TLJ. Unfortunately, he was almost always around Rey in TROS as her whipping boy, with no shining.

    Back to TLj. Meanwhile, Rey and Poe appeared as they were ready to take the helm from both Luke and Leia for the third film. Which I assumed Leia’s appearances would be limited and Luke would give advice out as a ghost. I was half-right.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 05-24-2020 at 09:48 PM.

  4. #94
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    7,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Star Wars has become quite used to blame the fans for everything amusingly enough.

    You had the wrong expectations, you hate women, you're racist...I would have expected that from fanboys but from officials and directors? That's new lol.
    Or maybe it just could be that the writing in those movies is really shitty.

    Ah, mysteries...
    Star Wars has one of the most toxic, entitled fanbases around. Believe you me, those fans you think are getting unfairly labeled, they're very real; I've seen it myself and it's time to stop tolerating it.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  5. #95
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    5,936

    Default

    I liked the Mandarin twist in Iron Man 3 and Will be happy to meet the real Mandarin in Shang-Chi.

    The real tragedy of I3 for my was Maya Hansen who should had been the real villain using both Trevor/Mandarin and Killian as front men. The set up was built around her she had the past with Tony and the Extremis technology was her creation. But Perlmutter put the kibosh on that, thank God that guy isn't making Marvel decisions anymore.

  6. #96
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    8,144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by A Small Talent For War View Post
    Which, again, had already been done by many movies in the 70's and 80's, some Clint Eastwood had starred in. HIGH PLAINS DRIFTER, THE WILD BUNCH, MISSOURI BREAKS, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES. It wasn't like that presentation was not already a part of the Western genre. No one at the time the movie came out considered Westerns to only have been what John Wayne used to make.
    I don't think you're considering what deconstruction actually entails. High Plains Drifter (1973) certainly does NOT deconstruct the notion of macho gun fights, and quick draws and easy kills. The first fifteen minutes you have him shoot dead three guys with ease at the barbershop. The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976) is all about a classic macho cowboy taking down many with ease, because he's just that good (though I do like the fact he's not the one to save the day at the end, but that's not deconstruction, the moral was never "he was never the hero" the moral was others can be too). It's an anti-war film, but that does not deconstruction make.

    When I mean deconstruction I mean: they can't shoot that fast, they are mostly drunks and all their victories are luck not skill, I mean they aren't heroes or good men, but thugs with a gun who others immortalize in tales and legends as the ultimate in manhood, when none of it is true. That there is no victory, and all of these shoot outs are pointless and mean nothing. Removing the macho from westerns. It's been a loooooong long time since I've seen the Wild Bunch, and I haven't seen Missouri Breaks, but based on your other two examples I doubt they are deconstructed to the level of Unforgiven (1992).

    Quote Originally Posted by A Small Talent For War View Post
    Little Bill is a violent bully who starts the movie by letting a cowboy who had just carved up a young woman pay for it with horses. He's played by a charismatic actor, but his actions are violent and sadistic and he's portrayed as a bully who will resort to violence with no consequences. If you don't hate him by the time he's thrashing Ned with a bullwhip then you're missing the point of the story. Munny knows what he's doing is wrong, but Little Bill thinks he's the good guy.
    I don't hate Bill, I pity him. You're right in saying he thinks he was the good guy, and he wasn't. And doesn't even realise it by the end. He thought he was the ultimate, the big man, able to take out English Bob because no-one is better than Bill... and then he came across a true psycho like Munny. And he didn't stand a chance. But to think that makes Munny the hero is... naive.

    Also in that time period if you think his actions with the cut up prostitute was an indication he's a villain, that's modern day thinking influencing your understanding. For that time period, his actions were pretty standard (sadly), and actually quite 'respectable' in terms of dealing out the law on the frontier.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 05-25-2020 at 08:14 AM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    As for TLJ, it moved the characters where they needed to be ahead of the final conclusion.
    I was glad Snoke was killed in TLJ. So we wouldn’t get the predictable third movie big bad display. Unfortunately, which we got anyway with by-the-numbers snidely whiplash Palpatine.

    Kylo killing Snoke and ascending was the most interesting thing about TLJ. And with Luke now gone, it looked like the third movie trilogy wouldn’t be weighed down. It would be the younger characters time to shine. Going against each other.

    To the people complaining that PT background Jedi didn’t have famous bloodlines. That’s not the point. The point is that now we were going to get a non-bloodline (Rey) vs the big bloodline (Kylo) for the third film. Instead we got Rey Palpatine. (No longer the underdog. Now the MAIN pedigree)

    I even liked that Finn killed Phasma in TLJ, but wished they put more emphasis on that. Especially since Rey wasn’t around to help him and take the glory. Finn really shines when he’s not near Rey. Like in TFA, when he’s trying to get to her on Starkiller or all during TLJ. Unfortunately, he was almost always around Rey in TROS as her whipping boy, with no shining.

    Back to TLj. Meanwhile, Rey and Poe appeared as they were ready to take the helm from both Luke and Leia for the third film. Which I assumed Leia’s appearances would be limited and Luke would give advice out as a ghost. I was half-right.
    I think it’s kind of interesting, because a lot of the debate about TLJ has to do with interpretation of both TFA and TLJ that doesn’t really align as naturally as it would with a single creator; that some of the expectations that people had subverted or over-invested in are caused by the different priorities, intent, and reading that Abrams, Johnson, and various members of the audience experienced.

    I mean, for instance, we already *had* a film where the younger character took center stage and sought to make the Trilogy theirs - it was TFA, where Han Solo, while a major attraction, wasn’t the male lead and was clearly acting in support of the new character already, unlike Luke in TLJ usurping Finn’s spot and seizing attention and significance away from Rey alongside Kylo. We already *had* non-bloodline/underdog vs the big bloodline in TFA with Finn and Rey versus Kylo, especially once TLJ sought to retroactively remove any doubt about Rey’s parentage, though that was already there and frankly conducted better than TLJ did when it killed off the conflict between Rey and Kylo for a frighteningly blind-to-the-implications pseudo-romance.

    But all that is up to *interpretation*, of course, which is partially why I think TFA and TLJ fans sometimes talk “past” each other - some of those who dislike TLJ are operating off an entirely different but no less legitimate interpretation of TFA, operating in an area where some of TLJ’s objectives were already accomplished by TFA, or simply can’t work with the framework TFA left behind. I mean, I’m someone who finds that Rey and Finn’s chemistry and interactions are key to both of their stories and that his TLJ story is a complete waste of potential and time, and that if there’s anyone who should be considered an heir to Luke and Leia alongside Rey, it’s Finn, not Poe or Kylo.

    I think this still arises from interpretative differences about TFA, but I think both sides are somewhat valid... except, in my opinion, for what are structurally unsound decisions made by TLJ that I think go beyond mere interpretative differences or subverted expectations - Luke’s time only screen being wasted for Rey’s story, Rey being attracted to an objectively loathsome and clearly harmful Kylo for no good reason, and a story structure where the only fresh element is Kylo being the main villain... but where that’s handicapped by him also being the last Skywalker, dragging a valuable IP through the dirt and effectively ending any chance of that family story having an ending that can be as rewarding as the one from ROTJ.

    However, I will both admit some truth to this next quote and analyze it for other fan bases, since while it’s true, it’s as much the result of accidental cultivation and cycles of infighting between creators as anything else...
    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Star Wars has one of the most toxic, entitled fanbases around. Believe you me, those fans you think are getting unfairly labeled, they're very real; I've seen it myself and it's time to stop tolerating it.
    ...Because while I’d agree that the fanbase of Star Wars suffers under the weight of infighting and toxicity, there’s more to it than just fan reaction, and I’d have to say that I think TLJ bears some blame for exacerbating tensions as a prime example,of creative disagreement and infighting...

    ...Because TLJ was the movie that “let” the racists win after their griping and groaning about Finn for TFA, and a movie that hypocritically abandoned its own feminist message, both the result of accident and hubris.

    I mean, let me give you my personal Millennial perspective; Generation X fans spent years decrying, mocking, and tarring the Prequel Trilogy... then they got a chance to make Star Wars, got a good start, then promptly shot themselves in the foot without realizing it because they thought they could do a better job than George Lucas. And part of that was because they over reacted against what flaws they saw in the PT and *in each other.*

    I mean, the fighting between Reylo fans and the rest of the fanbase is a product of TFA and TLJ disagreeing about Kylo, Rey, and the story of the ST, and TROS is a product of that element becoming a part of TROS’s creative process.

    It’s a bit like the expectations and fanbase infighting in Superman - older fans grew to become creators, and started creating without cohesion and against each other’s choices, and now you’ve got a fanbase torn apart as to what is the “right direction” for a story, and dependent on quality of execution for any consensus, so that people who believe competing philosophies about Superman can at least enjoy separate works.

    Heck, part of the Star Wars fanbase’s problem with the ST is that you have a situation where major figures like Pablo Hidalgo, Abrams, Johnson, LFL and Bad Robot disagree and feel attacked by each other. I mean, Hidalgo is justified in thinking TROS rejected TLJ’s stuff... but Abrams and Bad Robot would be justified in thinking TLJ rejected TFA’s stuff, all while George Lucas sits in the back quietly disappointed the rejected his ideas and stuff but liberated from having anything more than a monetary stake in it anymore.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 05-25-2020 at 12:59 PM.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    7,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...Because TLJ was the movie that “let” the racists win after their griping and groaning about Finn for TFA, and a movie that hypocritically abandoned its own feminist message, both the result of accident and hubris.
    Can't say for sure about the latter, but considering what Kelly Marie Tran suffered, I don't think TLJ was friendly to racists.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I mean, let me give you my personal Millennial perspective...
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...Generation X fans spent years decrying, mocking, and tarring the Prequel Trilogy... then they got a chance to make Star Wars, got a good start, then promptly shot themselves in the foot without realizing it because they thought they could do a better job than George Lucas. And part of that was because they over reacted against what flaws they saw in the PT and *in each other.*
    Well, some of the new movies were better then Lucas's work, others were worse. That's the nature of things and I have to say that that's perfectly normal. Dunno about the rest of it; IMHO we got two really good movies and a really flawed one that I mostly liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I mean, the fighting between Reylo fans and the rest of the fanbase is a product of TFA and TLJ disagreeing about Kylo, Rey, and the story of the ST, and TROS is a product of that element becoming a part of TROS’s creative process.
    Maybe, except Reylo was around since the original movie. Granted, the later movies did muddy that (I remember Reylo fans heralding TLJ as justifying them, while I still see it as the most anti-Reylo thing ever created), but I kinda think everyone had made up their minds before the rest of the movies were made, and more or less judged them on how well they fit what they wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    It’s a bit like the expectations and fanbase infighting in Superman - older fans grew to become creators, and started creating without cohesion and against each other’s choices, and now you’ve got a fanbase torn apart as to what is the “right direction” for a story, and dependent on quality of execution for any consensus, so that people who believe competing philosophies about Superman can at least enjoy separate works.
    Isn't that how all large, long-running franchises work?

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Heck, part of the Star Wars fanbase’s problem with the ST is that you have a situation where major figures like Pablo Hidalgo, Abrams, Johnson, LFL and Bad Robot disagree and feel attacked by each other. I mean, Hidalgo is justified in thinking TROS rejected TLJ’s stuff... but Abrams and Bad Robot would be justified in thinking TLJ rejected TFA’s stuff, all while George Lucas sits in the back quietly disappointed the rejected his ideas and stuff but liberated from having anything more than a monetary stake in it anymore.
    Not very in the know about what the Powers That Be do or do not feel about each other's work, to be honest. I kinda see the point that the planning left a bit to be desired, but I'm overall okay with things.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Can't say for sure about the latter, but considering what Kelly Marie Tran suffered, I don't think TLJ was friendly to racists.
    Racists ain’t ever going to be friendly, period, I think we can agree on that.

    Boyega and KMT both had to deal with racists.

    But TLJ was still the movie that kicked Finn out of the male lead role for Luke, interpreted him as more cowardly and small minded than TFA’s ending had actually established, made him the butt of more jokes without quite compensating in dramatic areas, and forbade him from exchanging even a single line of dialogue with Rey, who was now going to be treated as Driver’s co-star instead... while also sticking Boyega, KMT, and BDT (who it didn’t even give a real name to) all in the same plot suffering from juvenile writing that ignored (perhaps innocently) how bad it would be to lecture the dehumanized child slave soldier on slavery.

    And Finn’s story is reportedly still somehow the result of Johnson being asked to put more of him in TLJ. And TLJ is a film where, in general, the more of a white male you are, the more seriously the film will treat you, and the more it will override other non-white males in your scenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe, except Reylo was around since the original movie. Granted, the later movies did muddy that (I remember Reylo fans heralding TLJ as justifying them, while I still see it as the most anti-Reylo thing ever created), but I kinda think everyone had made up their minds before the rest of the movies were made, and more or less judged them on how well they fit what they wanted.
    I feel like I have to point out that the dissonance you perceive on TLJ may kind of disprove your point a bit - you are correctly identifying elements of TLJ that seem to reject and dismiss Reylo, but Reylo fans are correct in seeing it satisfying them by still treating it as a possibility after TFA with comparatively little work, but there’s really no middle ground between those two aspects, which is why it couldn’t pull off getting everyone on the same page.

    Like, the most anti-Reylo thing ever created is TFA, full stop; as far as that film is concerned, Rey’s only reactions to Kylo, are fear and anger, he’s just a monster to her who violates her mind, maims a friend, and kills a father figure, and she has other people who matter more to her because they earned it even though she’s a bit standoffish and rough around the edges.

    Where TLJ sends mixed messages that seem ignorant of “audience expectations”/“story standards” is that it looks at Rey and Kylo after TFA, then insists that if he just talks to her a little bit, and whines that Luke scared him, Rey will want to hold his hand and start calling him Ben, then risk herself and the future of the Galaxy to try and safe his soul, and crying for him when he fills to get redeemed. And that’s it.

    TLJ *does* have Rey close the door on Kylo... but it had to *open* the door in the first place, and really, it had to say there *was* a door there in the first place. And long so in a way that gave Kylo a double standard to enjoy on such little substance undermined its purpose in closing the door - if Rey could sympathize with Kylo after everything he did in TFA because he whined a bit, how can him disappointing her by not getting redeemed really matter? TLJ was arguing that Han’s death was something he could deflect on, and that Finn’s maiming, her violation, and everything else he did wouldn’t impact her approach towards him, which was also going to be less rough and stand-offish than what she’d offered BB-8 and Finn.

    The “expectations” being subverted here are being replaced with new “expectations” that frankly work against pretending that Rey shutting the door mattered.
    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Isn't that how all large, long-running franchises work?
    Not always, and in fact, sometimes they see “Renaissances” where the fanbase coalesces much more during a certain creator’s tenure. It’s really a matter of how well creators get along with *each other* and how they understand their fanbase. Geoff Johns managed to pull together the writers on the Green Lantern books under his tenure and managed to avoid the infighting there. The Flash fanbase under Johns was pretty good for a while as well... before the New 52 came in and demanded that Wally West be ignored.

    The Batman comics tended to be very tight for decades, only really suffering some minor hiccups, and was back on top of the game right before the New 52... when DC management intruded again and insisted on wreaking havoc among the Batgirls and Robins.

    The MCU showcased a greater ability to bond different visions of the franchise together in Phase 3, and I’d say one of the biggest credits about the Infinity War/Endgame story it managing to unite and respect *everything,* even the Thor: Dark World story... with the only part of the previous films standing out as being ignored now being Iron Man 3, because the MCU correctly gauged how to handle that with the fans, and has been working on redoing the Mandarin for some time.
    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Not very in the know about what the Powers That Be do or do not feel about each other's work, to be honest. I kinda see the point that the planning left a bit to be desired, but I'm overall okay with things.
    But if you don’t mind me saying, I’d say that when it comes to the Sequel Trilogy, we actually have a justified case to not be okay with things - “expectations”/“standards” got up-ended from film to film and in connection with the previous franchise, and frankly, there are some hard truths that an ST critic is allowed to have, in my opinion, without being judged as picky.

    Like, objectively, the Skywalker family is dead as a door nail now, with only their name remaining. Objectively, Rey is now a young woman apparently attracted to a violent and abusive “suitor” who had to pay Sleeping Beauty at the end of her last film for said abusive suitor. Objectively, Finn got pushed further and further away from center stage oath each film. And objectively, Ben Solo existed because they just hit “redo” on his big scene with Han in TFA.

    To me, that all goes far beyond stuff like “I hate sand” in terms of substance for complaint.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 05-26-2020 at 08:03 AM.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  10. #100
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    9,336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I assume it's one of the reasons Ruby Rose left Batwoman too? But the flip side is... online fandom is part of the industry now (for better or worse), and we can't avoid that reality. If you can't handle it (which is totally fine to admit), stay off the internet or have private accounts and don't google yourself. Ever. Some people will always hate you for who you are, what you stand for and what you do, and the internet has exacerbated that visceral attack. You need tough skin or to just avoid it.

    Like with comicsgate-folks were minding their own business and got attacked nonstop. They did what you said and it didn't work.

    Also when you allow those trolls to attack at will with no consequence-you encourage it even more.
    Because you have no idea what some of those trolls do in real life. That trolling can find its way into real life.

    What if those trolls were CASTING DIRECTORS? Who make sure YOU don't get hired anywhere.
    What if those trolls were the manager of a comic book store that decides he won't order YOUR stuff?
    What if those trolls were your kid's teacher? Who decides to FLUNK your kid?
    What if those trolls were your DOCTOR?
    What if those trolls are constantly putting MISINFORMATION out? That could be the difference between you WORKING or NOT.

    John Boyega. Is it NOT odd of the so-called 3 leads in Star Wars-the LEAST was done with him? He didn't get a comic book series like Poe or minis or one shots galore like Rey, Plasma, Rose, Kylo and others.
    He was the ONLY one left out of the Black Series action figure line for the last movie.

    Why should Leslie Jones get thicker skin when those bigots went after HER for Ghostbusters but left her BIGGER NAMED co-stars ALONE. Melissa McCarthy took on the trolls. She got left alone.
    Nobody went after Michael B Jordan's Fantastic Four co-stars-the trolls went after him and his entire family.

    Why should they have to put up with it? NOBODY is telling that guy in the White House that.


    If it's about the movie or show-then it should STICK to that. However we have seen too many (mainly those who DON'T watch or take issues with POC, LGBTQ & women) enter these fandom and attack.

    Why should they be allowed to attack stuff they have no interest in but have issues with POC, LGBTQ & women doing ANYTHING?

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonAnders View Post
    This sentiment is so mushed together I don't know what you mean. Could you try again please? I think there's something here I genuinely want to understand.
    The actress who played Batwoman has left the show and, apparently, a lot of it may be on-line harassment.

    First, it's hard to go after people for harassment when it is on-line. Hence, "Unfortunately, the anonymity of the Net has created a whole not so bold environment to unleash bigotry."

    Maybe I'm not understanding a lot about how the Net works but I would think an actress could establish an official fan site or have someone do it for her. That person reads it ahead of time, removes stuff that is clearly bigotry and harassment and the actress only receives stuff that is not in the category of harassment or bigotry. There can still be criticism. She then has the choice of responding to reasonable and decent people who are not threatening her or calling her vile names.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  12. #102
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    The actress who played Batwoman has left the show and, apparently, a lot of it may be on-line harassment.
    Saying that without any proof is wrong. The main thing it sounds like is she underestimated how hard it was doing a series that films that many episodes more than anything else. By all reports she was very unhappy with the work schedule and that was making her hard to work with. Yes there was harrasement at the beginning, but from everything I have read it seems it had very little bearing on her actually leaving.

  13. #103
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,390

    Default

    I suppose "the fans had the wrong expectations" COULD theoretically be a valid argument... but it could also just as easily be a thinly veiled ad hominem attack.

    the 'argument' of 'wrong expectations' also presupposes that those fan expectations were 'wrong' to begin with. now, in some cases, they most certain CAN be. but it seems to be getting used in some cases as an excuse to try and cover up plot holes, out-of-character-writing, or bland ideas that aren't as clever as the writers think they are.

    I don't think you can completely blame the failure of the Ghostbusters reboot on mere angry fanboys. you also can't write off all of the antagonism towards "the Last Jedi" based on racism or sexism. after several decades of existence... Luke Skywalker has a certain amount of character attributes that people expect of him. you can take certain liberties, to be sure, but they still have to feel like something the character would actually do or say.

    the latest version of "Emma" takes such liberties with the main character... but the things that she does and says in the film that are not in the novel still FEELS like something she might have actually done. the del Toro 'Hellboy' films took obvious liberties with the source material but they made it work because it still makes sense with the main character. once they made those choices they stuck with them! part of the problem with the SW sequel trilogy is that the directors of the different episodes were working at cross-purposes with each other and it shows! you can't blame that on the fans having the wrong expectations and expect to get a free pass on that sort of thing.

    TLJ isn't a bad movie on it's own terms... I consider it to be sort of ill-conceived, preachy, and trafficking in some pretty sad double standards... but that's for another topic. it's just that when you put it in the larger context of the Star Wars universe it feels less like a continuation of the narrative and more like a meta-commentary on the franchise and the fandom. the goofy scene where the hacker reveals that same companies are profiteering by selling to the First Order and to the Resistance is one such moment. the writers probably thought this was a subversive triumph... but it doesn't make a lick of sense if you think about it. did the Nazis and Russians both buy P-40 Warhawks from the United States? did the KMT and Chinese Communist parties both buy weapons from Australia during the Chinese Civil War? it DOES make sense at the level of meta-criticism... you could say that it's trying to implicate fans of their respective sides within the franchise narrative... but based on the economic and military history of the world... it doesn't make any sense at all. two factions waging war against each other wouldn't be purchasing their weapons from the same 'neutral' manufacturers for a variety of reasons. a large, powerful company wouldn't be selling weapons to the enemy of the state that they are answerable too... at least, not above board! especially a state that is as far reaching and ruthless as the Empire/First Order is shown to be.

    eh, moving on...

    when certain fans were bemoaning that Alicia Vikander shouldn't be playing Lara Croft... basically because her tits weren't big enough... then, yeah, I'd say that this IS a problem with fan expectations. it's not like Vikander is 'ugly' or a 'bad actor'. she was also clearly being cast to play a different version of the same iconic character.

    when people were complaining that Gal Gadot shouldn't play Wonder Woman because "real women have curves"... yeah, there's some lingering fan expectations that are probably impossible for her to meet.

    in both cases, however, I found myself pleased with the results. Gadot isn't really a great actor - but, like Lynda Carter before her, she was a great fit for the character of Wonder Woman in what we got.

    part of the underlying problem of the 'wrong expectations' argument is that it's most commonly used as an attack against the fans. now, in some cases, this would be deserved. in other cases it's not. if people are tormenting actors online for the character they play that's definitely on the fans. as much as I loathed the character of Rose Tico I also hated what the TLJ did with Luke Skywalker. but, in both cases, I blamed the writer and director and figured the actors are just doing their job to the best of their abilities.

    when I was excited about seeing Michael Fassbender and Marion Cotillard in the 2015 film adaptation of 'MacBeth' is it really supposed to be all my fault that I didn't enjoy the film because it failed to live up to my expectations? or could a considerable amount of blame be placed upon the people that made the film the mediocre mumble-core slog that it was? I can't help but think that if Kenneth Branagh or Roman Polanski were given the exact same cast and script it would have turned out quite a bit better!

    if I enjoyed "Dog Soldiers" and "the Descent" does that mean if the trailers for Neil Marshall's "Hellboy" movie looked so dreadful that it's my fault for not bothering to watch the film? I suppose.... because those awful looking trailers weren't meeting my expectations. the trailers looked so bad that I didn't care if I liked some of the director's other films. I also really wanted to see del Toro and Perlman come back for another film. that's on me for not watching the film, I suppose. although the 11% rating on Rotten Tomatoes does make me rather glad that I skipped that one!

  14. #104
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Corner Office
    Posts
    1,596

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    Some fans do get too in love with their own mental fanfic -- especially when romantic relationships are involved -- and get resentful when the canon doesn't turn out that way. That's on them... but in a weird way, it's all part of the game.
    Exactly. I find that people more often than not people's mental fan fiction is the culprit. Some of the complaints are just straight up childish and ridiculous. After I saw The Witcher I tried to join some forums, but just got off because a lot of the complaints were just petty and childish that I just had to get off.

    For example I liked TROS but became very dismissive of the complaints when I began to read that 90% of the complaints stemmed from people not paying attention to what was on screen or the fact that their personal narrative choices weren't being used. That's really not the creative parties choices, that the fans want to see their own personal fanfiction produced. I do realize that some creative licensing has to be taken and I don't lose my stuff over it.

    I always go in with an open mind to how my properties are treated. I was originally un happy with the casting of Daniel Craig as Bond and was convinced that the film would be a disaster. But changed my mind after I saw it.







    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    But sometimes bad storytelling is just bad storytelling, like Dany's sudden and inexplicable heel turn.
    I don't like show Dany, and have since learned that Emilia Clark was told to play her as unpleasant. But during the show she has always been shown as someone who loathed bullies and stood up for the disenfranchised. So for her to go nuclear on harmless civilians was just dumb and bad writing. The same effect of her burning down KL could have been achieved with her acting in character. By her aiming her fire at Cersei's soldiers, and it unintentionally blowing up hidden cash of wild fire. Killing hundreds of innocents (Which will probably will be what happens if GRRM sticks to his outline). Dany gets blamed. And no one wants to know the truth, they just want her dead. Same ending, no character assassination.
    • “At some point you have to choose between who the world wants you to be and who you are”.- Black Widow
    • “You get wounded and you heal. The wound repairs itself. But you’re not the same. We take our scars with us. They make us who we are. And if we can’t accept our scars [we will never be fully healed].” –Sean Lenahan (House on Fire)

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Exactly. I find that people more often than not people's mental fan fiction is the culprit. Some of the complaints are just straight up childish and ridiculous. After I saw The Witcher I tried to join some forums, but just got off because a lot of the complaints were just petty and childish that I just had to get off.

    For example I liked TROS but became very dismissive of the complaints when I began to read that 90% of the complaints stemmed from people not paying attention to what was on screen or the fact that their personal narrative choices weren't being used. That's really not the creative parties choices, that the fans want to see their own personal fanfiction produced. I do realize that some creative licensing has to be taken and I don't lose my stuff over it.

    I always go in with an open mind to how my properties are treated. I was originally un happy with the casting of Daniel Craig as Bond and was convinced that the film would be a disaster. But changed my mind after I saw it.
    There is probably an area of immediate identification of when expectations are at fault of its something pre-release, before the story has a chance it be viewed and examined - complaints about Craig pre******** Royal, a black male lead stormtrooper in TFA or about the idea of female Ghostbusters definitely seem more like hallmarks of fan expectations being in the wrong. It’s the idea of judging a book by its cover, after all, which always comes with a shallow set of preconceptions.

    But things get a bit grayer, and the impetus starts to lay more on the creators, whenever a franchise has goodwill from a previous entry/entries, has positive speculation and hype leading to its release... and then has backlash afterwards. Dany’s Heel Turn in Season 9 of Game of Thrones succumbs to a comparative failure more than a conceptual one - people are comparing her turn unfavorably to unexpected but well structured ideas like the Red Wedding, Sandor’s gradual Face Turn, or Cersei becoming the Mad Queen herself.

    The Rose of Skywalker’s reception is kind of fascinating to me because I’m both someone who loved TFA and hated TLJ. On the one hand, there’s a bit of a “turn about is fair play” feeling I have to TROS, but on the other hand, I feel like TLJ fans are somewhat justified in calling foul and in arguing against the “incorrect expectations” accusation - in sort because I feel similar feelings were justified against TLJ as a sequel to TFA.

    If you’re a TLJ fan who thinks “Hey, we were supposed to get Kylo as the new main villain, not Palpatine!” that’s justified, because TLJ quite clearly showed that as Kylo’s journey in the film... just like how I’m justified in saying “Hey, Rey shouldn’t find Kylo sympathetic on such little evidence!” because TFA built a solid and visceral antagonism between them that TLJ seems to ignore. If you’re a TLJ fan who thinks that Rey Palpatine/Skywalker sucks because it goes against the Rey Random story of TLJ, I’d say your justified because TLJ ignored Finn’s total story innTFA and refused to treat him like a male lead or as Rey’s most important companion (the Rey Skywalker vs Rey Random argument is different, in that I think that Rey Random is just a pathetic and inadequate answer that TLJ also executes horribly.)

    Iron Man 3 is a bit interesting, in that both it’s own marketing and it’s own script want to juke expectations, and much harder than even TLJ and TROS did, since IM3 did it within one film.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •