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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    You can acknowledge how big a role subjectivity plays in these things though. Because to go with your example, I would rather have a root canal than sit through Polanski's muddled, tepid Macbeth and it's inexplicable decision to make Ross the third murderer again, while I found Macbeth (2015) to be perfectly serviceable.
    Subjectivity is rife in this topic, regardless.

    But I think the “expectations” argument relies on one thing: having some element of a repeating “franchise” history. That can be anything from an old story being retold, like with Shakespeare, to make actual modern day franchise.

    I feel like the “expectations argument becomes more suspect and more likely to be a face-saving excuse whenever there’s a briefer time period between the previous entries, their success, and a comparative let-down of the accused entry. The TLJ argument hinges on how it was only two years removed from TFA, one year from RO, and whether or not it underperformed and was of lesser quality compared to those films. GOT’s finale had two ways to view it - as an inferior season compared to Season 7, and its finale episodes being weaker than the earlier ones in the same season.

    And does anyone else wonder if it’s accurate to compare different franchises to each other in this regard? I know there’s a lot of discussion with Star Wars where TLJ gets compared to, say, Black Panther for progressive messaging and carrying the franchise banner forward, or to Logan or even the latest God Of War Game in regards to dealing with an older hero’s return to the story. I feel this comparison have *some* legitimacy, as long as you keep the correct” comparison in mind.
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  2. #122
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Subjectivity is rife in this topic, regardless.

    But I think the “expectations” argument relies on one thing: having some element of a repeating “franchise” history. That can be anything from an old story being retold, like with Shakespeare, to make actual modern day franchise.

    I feel like the “expectations argument becomes more suspect and more likely to be a face-saving excuse whenever there’s a briefer time period between the previous entries, their success, and a comparative let-down of the accused entry. The TLJ argument hinges on how it was only two years removed from TFA, one year from RO, and whether or not it underperformed and was of lesser quality compared to those films. GOT’s finale had two ways to view it - as an inferior season compared to Season 7, and its finale episodes being weaker than the earlier ones in the same season.

    And does anyone else wonder if it’s accurate to compare different franchises to each other in this regard? I know there’s a lot of discussion with Star Wars where TLJ gets compared to, say, Black Panther for progressive messaging and carrying the franchise banner forward, or to Logan or even the latest God Of War Game in regards to dealing with an older hero’s return to the story. I feel this comparison have *some* legitimacy, as long as you keep the correct” comparison in mind.
    I always hate comparisons.

    I barely want to see, "See this movie, starring big star from different movie" type advertising. I should want to see this because it is great, not because something else was great.
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Subjectivity is rife in this topic, regardless.

    But I think the “expectations” argument relies on one thing: having some element of a repeating “franchise” history. That can be anything from an old story being retold, like with Shakespeare, to make actual modern day franchise.

    I feel like the “expectations argument becomes more suspect and more likely to be a face-saving excuse whenever there’s a briefer time period between the previous entries, their success, and a comparative let-down of the accused entry. The TLJ argument hinges on how it was only two years removed from TFA, one year from RO, and whether or not it underperformed and was of lesser quality compared to those films. GOT’s finale had two ways to view it - as an inferior season compared to Season 7, and its finale episodes being weaker than the earlier ones in the same season.

    And does anyone else wonder if it’s accurate to compare different franchises to each other in this regard? I know there’s a lot of discussion with Star Wars where TLJ gets compared to, say, Black Panther for progressive messaging and carrying the franchise banner forward, or to Logan or even the latest God Of War Game in regards to dealing with an older hero’s return to the story. I feel this comparison have *some* legitimacy, as long as you keep the correct” comparison in mind.
    I don't really think time is a huge component to fan expectations. Expectations can be built up and dashed as easily in a week as they can be in two years. I think it is reasonable to compare the films themselves but I don't think there is any other media franchise in the current climate that could be said to undergo the same level of scrutiny and hype as Star Wars. Certainly not Logan, which came after an entirely middling film by the same director, or God of War which for all its robust sales doesn't have the same cultural penetration as those titles. Even the MCU can shrug off middling titles like the Antman and Dr Strange and the implosion of its TV branch without much angst.

    For the record I liked TLJ and thought Season 7 of GOT had the same problems as season 8, only masked by the fact it got played mostly as a straight blockbuster. When it tries to delve into the duplicitousness of human nature with Sansa, Littlefinger and Arya it runs aground in exactly the same way.

  4. #124
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    This probably depends on a case by case basis.

    Fans are going to be right that an otherwise well-told story about a police investigation of a serial killer targeting prostitutes isn't a good fit for Sesame Street.

    But sometimes they'll have unreasonable expectations. When a series goes on long enough there will also be divides in the fandom that can't be reconciled if there's some kind of zero-sum endgame. Not everyone can sit on the iron throne.
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  5. #125
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I remember there were some criticisms of the prequels not lining up perfectly with the OT's backstory. Some expected a "reckless" Obi-Wan because of how Obi-Wan described himself to Yoda in ESB, and the casting of Ewan Mcgregor (Then kind of considered a bit of a "bad boy" actor); instead we had an Obi-Wan who was largely by-the-book, and wasn't even trained directly by Yoda as ESB seemed to imply, and instead of the story of Obi-Wan discovering Anakin, had it handed off to a Jedi we've never heard of (In Lucas's defense, in early versions of TPM he had Obi-Wan doing all the stuff early on in the movie, but then decided a second Jedi was necessary as the main character).


    Then of course there was the Leia remembering her mother thing which was a big complaint when ROTS was released.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I remember there were some criticisms of the prequels not lining up perfectly with the OT's backstory. Some expected a "reckless" Obi-Wan because of how Obi-Wan described himself to Yoda in ESB, and the casting of Ewan Mcgregor (Then kind of considered a bit of a "bad boy" actor); instead we had an Obi-Wan who was largely by-the-book, and wasn't even trained directly by Yoda as ESB seemed to imply, and instead of the story of Obi-Wan discovering Anakin, had it handed off to a Jedi we've never heard of (In Lucas's defense, in early versions of TPM he had Obi-Wan doing all the stuff early on in the movie, but then decided a second Jedi was necessary as the main character).


    Then of course there was the Leia remembering her mother thing which was a big complaint when ROTS was released.
    Those were minor things, the biggest problems was the drop in quality.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I remember there were some criticisms of the prequels not lining up perfectly with the OT's backstory. Some expected a "reckless" Obi-Wan because of how Obi-Wan described himself to Yoda in ESB, and the casting of Ewan Mcgregor (Then kind of considered a bit of a "bad boy" actor); instead we had an Obi-Wan who was largely by-the-book, and wasn't even trained directly by Yoda as ESB seemed to imply, and instead of the story of Obi-Wan discovering Anakin, had it handed off to a Jedi we've never heard of (In Lucas's defense, in early versions of TPM he had Obi-Wan doing all the stuff early on in the movie, but then decided a second Jedi was necessary as the main character).


    Then of course there was the Leia remembering her mother thing which was a big complaint when ROTS was released.
    I don’t get the Leia remembering her mother complaint, obviously she was remembering her adopted mother, but Luke didn’t realize that. That’s such a simple explanation.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Agreed. Unforgiven (1992) deconstructed the Western genre and cliches brilliantly. Nothing wrong with deconstruction.
    There is a difference between doing an original movie to deconstruct a genre and doing a movie that is part of the series, that deconstructs the previous movies.

  9. #129
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    I don’t get the Leia remembering her mother complaint, obviously she was remembering her adopted mother, but Luke didn’t realize that. That’s such a simple explanation.
    That's more a fan creation to explain it away though. But it's a minor inconsistency to begin with.

    Someone once said something that I think is the real issue with the sequels, "We already know what's going to happen".
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    That's more a fan creation to explain it away though. But it's a minor inconsistency to begin with.

    Someone once said something that I think is the real issue with the sequels, "We already know what's going to happen".
    Sequel? Or prequels? Because arguably... they both had to deal with that.

    The Prequels had a known ending coming; they were judged largely on their execution (debatable but tolerable in TPM, bad in AOTC, competent and largely effective in ROTS.) That’s arguably why the Clone Wars as a piece of lore-work wound up being so valuable; constructing an epic war that was also a false-flag operation that could do almost anything the story wants between AOTC and ROTS arguably made up for a lot of AOTC’s deficiencies as part of a larger story.

    The Sequel Trilogy, in contrast, was pretty strongly pulled along by a weird combination of trying to be original and trying to ape the plot aspects of the Original Trilogy... so it weirdly became a predictable story when the desire to ape the Original Trilogy won out.

    And since I think that TLJ is one where it wound up being weirdly two-faced about that aspect, it plays an interesting aspect in the debate: it was 100% dedicated to trying to swerve on expectations about Luke... but wound up succumbing to the worst types of cynical expectations involving Rey, Finn, and Kylo.

    If you were someone predicting that LFL would blink and turn away from having a progressive set of leads with a female main character and a black male lead, and end up over investing in both the OT heroes or in the one legacy character even though he wasn’t set-up for that role.
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  11. #131
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    I don’t get the Leia remembering her mother complaint, obviously she was remembering her adopted mother, but Luke didn’t realize that. That’s such a simple explanation.
    I think in the current canon Leia's foster mother lived until the Death Star destroyed Alderaan.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I think in the current canon Leia's foster mother lived until the Death Star destroyed Alderaan.
    Yeah. However, the context of the original scene always precluded it being her adopted mother ("your real mother").
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Subjectivity is rife in this topic, regardless.

    But I think the “expectations” argument relies on one thing: having some element of a repeating “franchise” history. That can be anything from an old story being retold, like with Shakespeare, to make actual modern day franchise.

    I feel like the “expectations argument becomes more suspect and more likely to be a face-saving excuse whenever there’s a briefer time period between the previous entries, their success, and a comparative let-down of the accused entry. The TLJ argument hinges on how it was only two years removed from TFA, one year from RO, and whether or not it underperformed and was of lesser quality compared to those films. GOT’s finale had two ways to view it - as an inferior season compared to Season 7, and its finale episodes being weaker than the earlier ones in the same season.

    And does anyone else wonder if it’s accurate to compare different franchises to each other in this regard? I know there’s a lot of discussion with Star Wars where TLJ gets compared to, say, Black Panther for progressive messaging and carrying the franchise banner forward, or to Logan or even the latest God Of War Game in regards to dealing with an older hero’s return to the story. I feel this comparison have *some* legitimacy, as long as you keep the correct” comparison in mind.
    TLJ and Black Panther gets compared because a lot of it is similar.

    Finn gets some character development. But a lot of it is just being lectured, even though they should already know this. Finn being lectured from Rose and wrongly by DJ. While T’Challa is lectured by Nakia and wrongly by Killmonger. In the end, both females are right, and it’s what the hero chooses.

    Also Black Panther goes out of the way to showcase the villain, Killmonger, but at the expense of the protagonist. While TLJ does it for Kylo at the expense of Rey.

    T’Challa is absent for a lot of the climax set up, as we follow Ramona’s, Nakia, Shuri, etc. While Rey is absent most of the climax as the story focuses on the Resistance, FO and Luke’s return.

    There’s also the twist death of the known primary antagonist (Snoke, Klaw) by the secondary antagonist (Kylo, Killmonger) Who ascends as the primary villain, who the story is really about.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 06-06-2020 at 02:23 PM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    TLJ and Black Panther gets compared because a lot of it is similar.

    Finn gets some character development. But a lot of it is just being lectured, even though they should already know this. Finn being lectured from Rose and wrongly by DJ. While T’Challa is lectured by Nakia and wrongly by Killmonger. In the end, both females are right, and it’s what the hero chooses.

    Also Black Panther goes out of the way to showcase the villain, Killmonger, but at the expense of the protagonist. While TLJ does it for Kylo’s aren’t at the expense of Rey.

    T’Challa is absent for a lot of the climax set up, as we follow Raymond’s, Nakia, Shuri, etc. While Rey is absent most of the climax as Irma focuses on the ResistMace, FO and Luke’s return.

    There’s also the twist death of the known primary antagonist (Snoke, Klaw) by the secondary antagonist (Kylo, Killmonger) Who ascends as primary villain, who the story is really about.
    I think this is actually the reverse here: Black Panther showcases Killmonger but without letting him actually overwhelm T’Challa, and instead integrating the two characters in a way that sharpens and emphasizes T’Challa’s story and his internal conflicts. The end result there is T’Challa exiting Black Panther as a mega-hot main character, even if Killmonger got just as much buzz. Yeah, he’s unconscious for a bit part of the film... but all his scenes focus on him - even when Killmonger’s there.

    In contrast, Rey’s fully conscious for most of The Last Jedi film... but isn’t focused on for most of her scenes with Luke and Kylo; in other words, she’s not focused on for most of her screen-time. That’s the definition of showcasing other characters at the main character’s expense. In TLJ, Luke and Kylo’s past alone matters more than Rey’s own experiences in the previous film, her training (which is non-existent), her self-respect (since that would inconvenience the pseudo-crush she has on Kylo), and even a place in the finale confronatation.

    *And she’s not on screen as much as T’Challa.*

    Like, in expectations... can it ever be wrong to expect that the main character will actually be treated as the main character?
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think this is actually the reverse here: Black Panther showcases Killmonger but without letting him actually overwhelm T’Challa, and instead integrating the two characters in a way that sharpens and emphasizes T’Challa’s story and his internal conflicts. The end result there is T’Challa exiting Black Panther as a mega-hot main character, even if Killmonger got just as much buzz. Yeah, he’s unconscious for a bit part of the film... but all his scenes focus on him - even when Killmonger’s there.

    In contrast, Rey’s fully conscious for most of The Last Jedi film... but isn’t focused on for most of her scenes with Luke and Kylo; in other words, she’s not focused on for most of her screen-time. That’s the definition of showcasing other characters at the main character’s expense. In TLJ, Luke and Kylo’s past alone matters more than Rey’s own experiences in the previous film, her training (which is non-existent), her self-respect (since that would inconvenience the pseudo-crush she has on Kylo), and even a place in the finale confronatation.

    *And she’s not on screen as much as T’Challa.*

    Like, in expectations... can it ever be wrong to expect that the main character will actually be treated as the main character?
    In Black Panther it’s T’Chaka, his brother N’Jobu, and Killmonger’s past alone that matters. And only they, along with Zuri, are only showcased in flashbacks.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 06-06-2020 at 02:30 PM.

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