“The fans had the wrong expectations!” - How legitimate is the argument?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Snoke wasn't that big of a loss, and given how Kylo Ren was rising through the movies I'd say it would have been simple to transition him to be the main villain for ROTS. He's the tie who binds the villains together in the trilogy.

Snoke was introduced as a Palpatine-level threat. Even if Kylo Ren would have eventually taken over, it is clear Snoke was absolutely meant to have a bigger presence than he did.

[Kieran_Frost]

Various stars in SW have had troubling interactions with the fandom online, especially the women and minorities. It's impacted other movies like Captain Marvel and Black Panther, as well. It's a industry onto itself on sites like You Tube.

I assume it's one of the reasons Ruby Rose left Batwoman too? But the flip side is... online fandom is part of the industry now (for better or worse), and we can't avoid that reality. If you can't handle it (which is totally fine to admit), stay off the internet or have private accounts and don't google yourself. Ever. Some people will always hate you for who you are, what you stand for and what you do, and the internet has exacerbated that visceral attack. You need tough skin or to just avoid it.

[A Small Talent For War]

It totally deconstructed the western genre. Taking apart the absurdity of myth, calling the idea of "quick draw" just a fallacy, removing this nothing of heroes and villains. They are human, flawed humans, and none of them "won" in the end. For all the 'victory' of not dying, Will Munny still ended up a penniless pig farmer. Legends aren't remembered, fame is fickle, the Schofield Kid hasn't killed anyone before, nor can he see. Hell, English Bob isn't even English. It's all about removing the glamour, heroism and "nobility" of the Wild West. They were psychopaths, and they got lucky.

Which, again, had already been done by many movies in the 70's and 80's, some Clint Eastwood had starred in. HIGH PLAINS DRIFTER, THE WILD BUNCH, MISSOURI BREAKS, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES. It wasn't like that presentation was not already a part of the Western genre. No one at the time the movie came out considered Westerns to only have been what John Wayne used to make.

I... hmmmm... in the politest possible way if you think the ending was 'the hero' taking out the trash, I think you missed the point of the movie. Will Munny is NOT a hero. The film made that very clear. Nor is Little Bill 'evil'.

Little Bill is a violent bully who starts the movie by letting a cowboy who had just carved up a young woman pay for it with horses. He's played by a charismatic actor, but his actions are violent and sadistic and he's portrayed as a bully who will resort to violence with no consequences. If you don't hate him by the time he's thrashing Ned with a bullwhip then you're missing the point of the story. Munny knows what he's doing is wrong, but Little Bill thinks he's the good guy.

[godisawesome]

I think the argument is like plot twists. It only works when there was evidence all along, but was subtle enough that the fans ignored it.

Gurren Lagann is an example of when the argument is legitimate. The creators of the show tricked people into thinking Kamina was the main character, then they killed him off in episode 8. However, it's obvious when you go back and watch the first 8 episodes that Simon was always the main character.

The argument is 100% illegitimate with Snoke. There is literally nothing in TFA to suggest Snoke wasn't the main bad guy.

Snoke wasn't that big of a loss, and given how Kylo Ren was rising through the movies I'd say it would have been simple to transition him to be the main villain for ROTS. He's the tie who binds the villains together in the trilogy.

The Snoke and Kylo aspect of TLJ is more an issue of mixed messaging and rather wretched clash in styles and philosophies between TFA and TLJ. I think both Abrams/Kasdan and Johnson saw Kylo’s arc as being a decaying arc into further antagonism, wherein he would likely take the position of overall Big Bad from Snoke, who really was meant to be a Palpatine stand-in for functionality’s sake... but whereas Kasdan/Abrams valued both the mystery of both characters (at least in the abstract) and saw Kylo’s role as clearly being the “bad guy” in support of Rey and Finn’s stories, Johnson regarded the mysteries as liabilities to some extent and dismissed that, while viewing Kylo as more of a tragic anti-hero and partner with Rey as co-protagonists.

Those are two very different interpretations and visions of the situation that most definitely *do* act against audience expectations from the first entry... but in a way that can seem spiteful or wasteful instead of ambitious or bold. And I think only some of that subversion was intentional, which means that the rest was more just a case of flat-out mistakes on the past of Rian Johnson.

Snoke being killed and replaced without addressing any of the mystery, and the way that Johnson playfully mocked the speculation about him, is the part that can seem willfully spiteful and wasteful; Johnson’s own apathy towards the character and his mystery means that any attempt to answer the mystery, even in a way that emphasize and justify the film’s intentions, is disregarded, and the story remains kind fi shallow and Snoke becomes even more of a caricature because of Johnson’s disinterest. This keeps Snoke from actually being useful to either Rey or Kylo’s story beyond ostensibly being an obstacle they can align against briefly. He’s not used to help explain Kylo’s fall (not really, anyways), he’s not used to help explain Luke’s failures as a Jedi, he’s not used to explain how and why the First Order is so powerful, and he’s not even really used to grow Kylo into a worthy Big Bad - at minimum, a second to two or training or more effective psychological torture to help Kylo be a more intimidating and dangerous villain was kind of needed to make sure Kylo was an *effective* Big Bad.

The way Johnson and LFL fawned over Kylo, and the way that undermined and honestly poisoned both Rey *and* the conflict between her and Kylo, was an accidental and more ignorant case of subversion - I don’t even know if this one is really a move against expectations as much as just an example of bias, hypocritical double standards, and a failure to understand the previous film’s substance. And even given their reactions and defense of TLJ, I just don’t think they ever realized how thoroughly TFA had positioned Kylo as only a hate-able antagonist who’s crossed the point of no return, or how Rey and Finn were genuinely interesting and like-able characters in *oppositon* to Kylo, and on their own merits.

Like, I’m going to use this next quote to argue there’s just some things where LFL and Johnson showed that the creative process of the Sequel Trilogy - having each director create their own story without involvement of the others and with only minimal input from the Story Group (seriously, even Johnson only really used them for naming stuff he’d already come up with) - meant that they reached a point where they got tunnel vision tha5 killed their ability to perceive their own output correctly, unlike with Lucas and the PT.

Who involved in the production of the movie said these things?

It’s definitely not Kathleen Kennedy because her silence had been deafening. Johnson made a few comments but most of them were in defense of the movie, Abrams on the other hand pretty much accepted the criticism of TROS and had pretty much moved on.

Like, this minimum of comments afterwards from Kennedy, Johnson, and even guys like Pablo Hidalgo tell me that it never even occurred to them that Rey expressing pseudo-romantic interest in Kylo was sexist and almost endorsing an abusive relationship, that Kylo wasn’t actually sympathetic, that Finn had a strong progressive message underpinning his role as a male lead that wouldn’t work well with being marginalized in a side plot of a sideplot with mot of the other POCs, or that they’d kind of simply replaced Rey as the main lead with their focus on Luke and Kylo...

...And I’d say all of those decisions are moving against the kind of expectations that aren’t marketing based or conceived of as red herrings, but are instead simply issues created by good and functional writing in TFA not working with out-of-character and counter-logical decisions in TLJ.

Like, Johnson and LFL were fully prepared for people arguing about Luke’s story - that’s why they allowed Hamill to express his own doubts about it - and they *thought* they knew how to praise other elements of the story...

... but there’s a dissonance and lack of understanding that comes when you’ve been all ready to gush about Holdo being a feminist symbol but are being asked questions about why the Rey is attracted towards the perp that assaulted her, or Holdo being written as though she were an incompetent military commander, or why Rey doesn’t get trained by Luke when his scenes seem to focus on him instead of her. And if you’re all ready to gush about Kelly Marie Tran’ excellent skills as an actress, you aren’t ready to field questions about Rose being written badly and accidentally dooming everyone so she can kiss Finn.

[GeekSmark]

What are people's opinion on the ill fated Zombieland tv show?

One of the producers said that toxic fans "successfully hated it out of existence"

While several reviews said the pilot just wasnt good enough to justify ordering the whole series.

For my part I am not a fan of re casting roles. Breaks my suspension of disbelief and is kinda distracting. I didnt bothered watching the pilot when it came out because I had an expectation for those characters and that just wasnt it. So I guess I was part of the problem.

[JamesonAnders]

What are people's opinion on the ill fated Zombieland tv show?

One of the producers said that toxic fans "successfully hated it out of existence"

I'll believe that haters can hate a show out of existence when I see evidence that fans can love a show into existence (Star Trek aside)

[Jokerz79]

Personally my issue with the Sequel trilogy more is TFA created the questions like Who's Snoke, Who's Rey's parents, Why did Kylo turn to the Dark Side, and built the need to find Luke.

Then TLJ was like Snoke who cares and he's dead.

Rey's parents are nobodies (Because nobodies can be special, well no **** sherlock the Jedi was full of nobodies).

Kylo is bad because Luke tried to kill him (Something Luke wouldn't do I'm sorry that's not even just my opinion it goes against every depiction of Luke ever seen.).

Last Luke nah we don't really need him.

I get fans being annoyed at that but attacking actors online is wrong it's just a movie at the end of the day.

[AdamFTF]

Rey's parents are nobodies (Because nobodies can be special, well no **** sherlock the Jedi was full of nobodies).

Were they? Because the only Jedi we really ever got to know was Luke and he was supposedly the son of some great and powerful warrior who tragically turned to the dark side.

[Jokerz79]

Were they? Because the only Jedi we really ever got to know was Luke and he was supposedly the son of some great and powerful warrior who tragically turned to the dark side.

Yoda, Mace Windu, Ashoka Tano, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and all the rest of the Jedi from the Clone Wars weren't "Chosen Ones" or Children of the "Chosen One" so no the idea anyone with Force Sensitivity could be a Jedi is not a new or revolutionary idea.

[AdamFTF]

Yoda, Mace Windu, Ashoka Tano, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and all the rest of the Jedi from the Clone Wars weren't "Chosen Ones" or Children of the "Chosen One" so no the idea anyone with Force Sensitivity could be a Jedi is not a new or revolutionary idea.

Well, they never made that clear in the movies and I never read any of the novels or comics (just like most people haven't). So, there was no reason to know that.

Oh, and going back to the Iron Man 3 bit, part of the problem with the Mandarin reveal is that it reinforces the infamous "MCU villain problem". The thing where every villain seems to be an evil version of the hero. Such was the case with the Iron Man series. The villain of the first movie was Obadiah Stane aka Iron Monger, a snarky evil businessman. One of the main villains of Iron Man 2 was Justin Hammer, another snarky evil businessman. The other villain was Whiplash, who physically resembled Iron Man. Then Iron Man 3 introduces The Mandarin who seems different. He's serious, runs a powerful organization and is motivated by his own ideology. It's different, it's interesting, it's . . . fake. The real villain is Aldrich Killian, a snarky evil businessman. Only his business is A.I.M. Yippee. I came away from the series withe the general idea that Iron Man only ever fights people who remind him of himself.

[Jokerz79]

Well, they never made that clear in the movies and I never read any of the novels or comics (just like most people haven't). So, there was no reason to know that.

Oh, and going back to the Iron Man 3 bit, part of the problem with the Mandarin reveal is that it reinforces the infamous "MCU villain problem". The thing where every villain seems to be an evil version of the hero. Such was the case with the Iron Man series. The villain of the first movie was Obadiah Stane aka Iron Monger, a snarky evil businessman. One of the main villains of Iron Man 2 was Justin Hammer, another snarky evil businessman. The other villain was Whiplash, who physically resembled Iron Man. Then Iron Man 3 introduces The Mandarin who seems different. He's serious, runs a powerful organization and is motivated by his own ideology. It's different, it's interesting, it's . . . fake. The real villain is Aldrich Killian, a snarky evil businessman. Only his business is A.I.M. Yippee. I came away from the series withe the general idea that Iron Man only ever fights people who remind him of himself.

Jedi were taken as children and weren't allow to marry and have families in the films. So every Jedi was a Force Sensitive Nobody in the Clone Era except Anakin. That's why TLJ "revelation" anybody could be a Jedi was dumb the Jedi were built on that and not bloodlines.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I assume it's one of the reasons Ruby Rose left Batwoman too? But the flip side is... online fandom is part of the industry now (for better or worse), and we can't avoid that reality. If you can't handle it (which is totally fine to admit), stay off the internet or have private accounts and don't google yourself. Ever. Some people will always hate you for who you are, what you stand for and what you do, and the internet has exacerbated that visceral attack. You need tough skin or to just avoid it.

It was really bad before, post- Gamrgate it's impossible for artists on the receiving end of coordinated attacks like that have any presence on the internet and since they're Hollywood actors this will impact how much work they get in their future. This reaction doesn't apply to every actor, women and minorities get the brunt of it. This is a problem having a thick skin won't fix.

Edit: When they're successful it'll hurt their job opportunities, compare Kelly Marie Tran's scenes in TLJ to TROS.

[ChrisIII]

Snoke was introduced as a Palpatine-level threat. Even if Kylo Ren would have eventually taken over, it is clear Snoke was absolutely meant to have a bigger presence than he did.

Some of the early EU material for the sequel hinted that Snoke had been around for a long time, was something Palpatine had sensed and perhaps even feared in the "Unknown regions". Of course ROS pretty much ditched that, making Palpatine himself the mysterious thing in the unknown regions and Snoke just a proxy/puppet (and strongly hinted to be a clone of....someone) etc.

[LordMikel]

I'll believe that haters can hate a show out of existence when I see evidence that fans can love a show into existence (Star Trek aside)

For all practical purposes, this is correct, but there have been a few exceptions to that rule, for shows that fans were able to save for one more season. Angel, Jericho, Chuck, Veronica Mars, and Firefly.

[Powerboy]

I assume it's one of the reasons Ruby Rose left Batwoman too? But the flip side is... online fandom is part of the industry now (for better or worse), and we can't avoid that reality. If you can't handle it (which is totally fine to admit), stay off the internet or have private accounts and don't google yourself. Ever. Some people will always hate you for who you are, what you stand for and what you do, and the internet has exacerbated that visceral attack. You need tough skin or to just avoid it.

I haven't even seen the show yet because I watch stuff on Netflix and she's already been driven out?

Unfortunately, the anonymity of the Net has created a whole not so bold environment to unleash bigotry. A lot of people do need to go to private accounts or some sort of situation where someone runs a fan board for them, simply deletes and bans all the bigoted stuff and let's them see and respond to legitimate fans and legitimate criticisms which I consider better than letting them drive you out.