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  1. #136
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I am not a fan of geoff johns superman. I hope "reigning in" doesn't turn the character into something else. Anyways, i don't think it will happen .Regardless, Snyder had already wanted a positive arc with superman.So geoff johns or no the character had a trajectory.
    The one thing I'm confused about is whether Superman's arc actually concludes in this film, or if it stays kind of dark so that his resurrection in a hypothetical JL2 is more uplifting. Or is the Snyder Cut the combination of those originally planned films?

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think it's as clear cut as either the official PR or the rumors make it out to be. It's likely a combination of both. WB was clearly unhappy with Snyder's vision after BvS failed to land with audiences and things got increasingly dire. However, I don't think Snyder is lying when he says he decided to step down following his daughter's death, which WB then used as an excuse to bring in Whedon, who attempted to give the studio what they wanted given the ridiculous parameters Kevin Tsujihara had imposed on the film--namely a 2 hour runtime and November 2017 release date, all of which led to a film that lacked the ability to give the story or characters any depth while also hamstringing Superman with a distractingly CGI'ed upper lip. Would Snyder have been fired eventually? It's possible, but that would have led to even worse PR for the movie. I think it was unfortunate situation all around.

    The good thing about this is that we get to see what Snyder had in mind, sort of, since he'd already been reigned in by Geoff Johns somewhat during production. Irregardless of how this thing turns out, it means there's an almost entirely new Justice League film coming out in 2021 that doesn't have to be saddled with all the franchise building nonsense that it originally had to accomplish. That's a win/win as far as I'm concerned.

    There's no chance that WB is suddenly going to reverse course again and go back to Snyder's original plan. That ship has sailed. Affleck doesn't want to do it anymore. Wonder Woman and Aquaman have embraced a lighter, less self-serious tone, as did Shazam. We're not returning to the old DCEU, but that incarnation will at least get a more fitting conclusion than we got back in 2017.
    I really hope you are right about all that. I have to wait and see to be sure. After this announcement and the way AT&T are promoting it, I feel we could have more surprises coming..

    There is a reason both Aquaman and WW retconned some things from the Snyder version of the characters. It made the characters look too dark and pessimistic. I hope their success and impact have some weight in all this and show those execs what is that general audiences and most fans really want to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I am not a fan of geoff johns superman. I hope "reigning in" doesn't turn the character into something else. Anyways, i don't think it will happen .Regardless, Snyder had already wanted a positive arc with superman.So geoff johns or no the character had a trajectory.
    His ideal story was turning Superman into a weak man going evil after Lois' murder... That scene in BvS when Bruce is having a "dream/vision" or whatever, it was a possible future. That was dark/evil Superman at his worst. Vengeful. I really hope and pray WB and AT&T don't let him put that version of the character in his JL movie. That would ruin Cavill as Superman in my mind.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 05-22-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I really hope you are right about all that. I have to wait and see to be sure. There is a reason both Aquaman and WW retconned some things from the Snyder version of the characters. It made the characters look too dark and pessimistic.



    His ideal story was turning Superman into a weak man going evil after Lois' murder... That scene in BvS when Bruce is having a "dream/vision" or whatever, it was a possible future. That was dark/evil Superman at his worst. Vengeful. I really hope and pray WB and AT&T don't let him put that version of the character in his JL movie. That would ruin Cavill as Superman in my mind.
    He had Clark being mind controlled by a villain something other writers have done before. Considering Johns wrote an entire comic event where several DC heroes were turned into murderous zombies that also liked to taunt their prey, I'm not sure what was there in Snyder's take he'd find so objectionable.

  4. #139
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He had Clark being mind controlled by a villain something other writers have done before. Considering Johns wrote an entire comic event where several DC heroes were turned into murderous zombies that also liked to taunt their prey, I'm not sure what was there in Snyder's take he'd find so objectionable.
    you can't compare an out of canon comic book geared for hardcores to a mainstream movie. You really can't. Very different audiences. I think it's about giving audiences a Superman to root for and feel inspired and entertained NOT SCARED OF.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    you can't compare an out of canon comic book geared for hardcores to a mainstream movie. You really can't. Very different audiences. I think it's about giving audiences a Superman to root for and feel inspired and entertained NOT SCARED OF.
    Blackest Night wasn't out of canon. And again, he was mind controlled. If people failed to notice that context, that's their fault.

  6. #141
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Blackest Night wasn't out of canon. And again, he was mind controlled. If people failed to notice that context, that's their fault.
    I haven't read Blackest Night so can't comment. It doesn't matter if he's been mind controlled if Superman still kill people while under it. It makes him look really really bad. And my understanding is that he also chose to give in to Darkseid because without Lois his life had no meaning or something like that. That to me is character assassination.

  7. #142
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    His ideal story was turning Superman into a weak man going evil after Lois' murder... That scene in BvS when Bruce is having a "dream/vision" or whatever, it was a possible future. That was dark/evil Superman at his worst. Vengeful. I really hope and pray WB and AT&T don't let him put that version of the character in his JL movie. That would ruin Cavill as Superman in my mind.
    His idea was to have superman get more confident, extroverted... Etc. You do know that's what they always do with superman in every other outside media(turninh evil being a possible future) . Have you actually watched superman tas, jl or jlu? Why should i hate snyder for doing the same thing bruce timm does?

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I haven't read Blackest Night so can't comment. It doesn't matter if he's been mind controlled if Superman still kill people while under it. It makes him look really really bad. And my understanding is that he also chose to give in to Darkseid because without Lois his life had no meaning or something like that. That to me is character assassination.
    That is not remotely how it happened.

  9. #144
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That is not remotely how it happened.
    So you saw it already?

    That's how Snyder sounded when he answered questions to the fans like a year ago. It's how many of his fans understand it.

    In BvS, he killed people in that 'dream', included Batman with his heat vision. You think that was cool?

  10. #145
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    So you saw it already?

    That's how Snyder sounded when he answered questions to the fans like a year ago. It's how many of his fans understand it.

    In BvS, he killed people in that 'dream', included Batman with his heat vision. You think that was cool?
    You haven't seen it either. Dude! Snyder from what i have seen isn't like the people who put on a face, like pr. What it sounds like and what it is can be vastly different. He might have trouble articulating what he wishes. Also, dcau justice lord superman french fries lex luthor for killing wally west.It's an alternate dark timeline designed to give the hero a warning, if he gives in to his dark desires he will become the monster he fights.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-22-2020 at 09:54 AM.

  11. #146
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    His idea was to have superman get more confident, extroverted... Etc. You do know that's what they always do with superman in every other outside media(turninh evil being a possible future) . Have you actually watched superman tas, jl or jlu? Why should i hate snyder for doing the same thing bruce timm does?
    No it wasn’t. The plan was for Superman to go evil at the end of JL2, and Batman was going to reboot the timeline with Flash’s help in JL3. Superman himself would’ve played no part in helping to set things right. Snyder has repeatedly shown that he has no interest in the classic Superman whatsoever.

    Funniest part of all of this is that Snyder’s plan basically makes Jor-El completely wrong. Superman doesn’t inspire anything but pain and terror. Batman is the one who was going to save the day ultimately, with Superman being little more than a plot device.

  12. #147
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That is not remotely how it happened.
    No that’s basically how it happened. “She was my world”, is what he says. Also notice that Snyder never bothered to show Superman interacting with people on anything approaching a human level, he was always the tortured man-god suffering for my sins, (and showing signs of going EVILLLLL). His big realization at the end of BvS is not that humanity is flawed but still worth fighting for, but that Lois is the one bright light in a sea of **** so he’ll die for her.

  13. #148
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You haven't seen it either. Dude! Snyder from what i have seen isn't like the people who put on a face, like pr. What it sounds like and what it is can be vastly different. He might have trouble articulating what he wishes. Also, dcau justice lord superman french fries lex luthor for killing wally west.It's an alternate dark timeline designed to give the hero a warning, if he gives in to his dark desires he will become the monster he fights.
    Justice Lord Superman is not the real Superman dude... Anyone is capable of doing bad things, but the story of Superman (in my view) is that he is a good guy and nothing can corrupt him. If you think he could, then I don't share your view. It doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings like anyone else, but he has the strength to control his negative impulses. It's why he is the greatest. he is willing to sacrifice his life to save others he doesn't even know. Superman is goodness personified.

  14. #149
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    No it wasn’t. The plan was for Superman to go evil at the end of JL2, and Batman was going to reboot the timeline with Flash’s help in JL3. Superman himself would’ve played no part in helping to set things right. Snyder has repeatedly shown that he has no interest in the classic Superman whatsoever.

    Funniest part of all of this is that Snyder’s plan basically makes Jor-El completely wrong. Superman doesn’t inspire anything but pain and terror. Batman is the one who was going to save the day ultimately, with Superman being little more than a plot device.
    I have no interest in classic mainstream superman myself. He is lazy, arrogant, pushover, passionless, savior compex driven, non genuine goody two shoes naive, flying brick. I like siegel and shuster's superman. So, i wouldn't call that a sin. I like some other good portrayals as well.

    "you are weak kal, unsure of yourself"
    He was always meant to have a positive arc. Moreover, i have said it already. That was an alternate timeline designed to warn the hero. Otherwise it makes no sense in story to have superman be portrayed as evil.Sure, he will be tested but the guy will come on top of it.Besides, If you want to play that game. Batman is the one always saving the day. Because He atleast knows he has issues, unlike the naive boyscout..

  15. #150
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Justice Lord Superman is not the real Superman dude... Anyone is capable of doing bad things, but the story of Superman (in my view) is that he is a good guy and nothing can corrupt him. If you think he could, then I don't share your view. It doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings like anyone else, but he has the strength to control his negative impulses. It's why he is the greatest. he is willing to sacrifice his life to save others he doesn't even know. Superman is goodness personified.

    Question disagrees with you. That is entirely possible future for superman. Btw, question paid a big price for the naivety of the boyscout in story. Yeah! Yeah! He is jesus christ in a strongman suit. I get it. I also hate it.

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