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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Has her being able to cross the line when needed ever actually been beneficial for her?
    It's as beneficial and detrimental to her as the no killing rule is to Batman and Superman. That is, it can work as well as the writer depicts it

    It gives precedent for poor writers to exaggerate her and make her a stab happy lunatic.
    Are we calling Mark Waid and Grant Morrison poor writers now? Because they've done more to push than any almost any other writer.

    Funny thing is that this portrayal only appears in elseworld tales or Justice League stories and is usually done by writers who want to make a "point" about how Diana has lost her way. Meanwhile, people like Rucka and Perez had Diana use lethal force within reason and didn't feel the need to go on long-winded, morally confused screeds about the evils of killing (while praising or ignoring heroes for actions that were less justifiable than most of the killings Diana has done).


    Meanwhile, the writers who actually execute it well still don't have her kill anyone who actually matters. Where is the mainstream story where she finally kills Dr. Psycho or the Joker? No, just have her kill a mythological monster as if anyone cares.
    I don't know if she'd have much to lose from killing Psycho. I wouldn't object to her or anyone else putting the Joker six feet under where he belongs but the Bat office is likely to have control over that. Besides, we both know that will just make her the target of a really ugly section of the fandom.

  2. #197
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Are we calling Mark Waid and Grant Morrison poor writers now? Because they've done more to push than any almost any other writer.
    Waid has admitted to regretting how he wrote her in Kingdom Come.

    Beyond her brainwashing in Final Crisis, Morrison has not written Diana that way. Like at all. Any other issues he has with her, and there are some, that's not one of them. Are you confusing him with Johns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Funny thing is that this portrayal only appears in elseworld tales or Justice League stories and is usually done by writers who want to make a "point" about how Diana has lost her way. Meanwhile, people like Rucka and Perez had Diana use lethal force within reason and didn't feel the need to go on long-winded, morally confused screeds about the evils of killing (while praising or ignoring heroes for actions that were less justifiable than most of the killings Diana has done).
    Yet Perez and Rucka still didn't have her kill anyone fans would actually miss. Rucka even had the Max Lord thing forced upon him as part of Infinite Crisis, didn't he? He executed it as good as anyone could, but as a rule I don't think WW fans regard that storyline as something good that happened to her. Meanwhile, it was already established that Medusa could be brought back from death, it's not as if Diana beheading her is a guaranteed permanent solution. It was 100% the right call in that story, but what's to stop Circe from waving her hands and bringing her back again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't know if she'd have much to lose from killing Psycho. I wouldn't object to her or anyone else putting the Joker six feet under where he belongs but the Bat office is likely to have control over that. Besides, we both know that will just make her the target of a really ugly section of the fandom.
    She's not losing one of the few semi-popular recurring villains she has. You know even if they killed him off, the next writer who wants to use him will contrive a way to bring him back (if a reboot doesn't do it for them).

    What would make the segment of the fandom "ugly?"

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Beyond her brainwashing in Final Crisis, Morrison has not written Diana that way. Like at all. Any other issues he has with her, and there are some, that's not one of them. Are you confusing him with Johns?




    Yet Perez and Rucka still didn't have her kill anyone fans would actually miss. Rucka even had the Max Lord thing forced upon him as part of Infinite Crisis, didn't he? He executed it as good as anyone could, but as a rule I don't think WW fans regard that storyline as something good that happened to her.
    The story where she killed Max was fine in and of itself. It was other writers ignoring what actually happened in it that was the problem and it isn't like being a killer when other superheroes are not is the sole reason Diana is such a target for crappy writing and double standards. You only need to look at how Superman and Batman's particular screw ups were ignored after Infinite Crisis.

    Meanwhile, it was already established that Medusa could be brought back from death, it's not as if Diana beheading her is a guaranteed permanent solution.
    Well there's that and the heroes of the DCU are flaming hypocrites when it comes to this sort of thing so a woman with snakes for hair getting killed is fine but apparently Max actually required proof he needed to be killed because he "looked like everyone else".




    She's not losing one of the few semi-popular recurring villains she has. You know even if they killed him off, the next writer who wants to use him will contrive a way to bring him back (if a reboot doesn't do it for them).
    I'm just not seeing Dr Psycho, one of the most outdated and offensive characters, taking Diana to massive heights of popularity. They;d probably have to revamp him as Morrison did (I'll give him props for that) but I doubt DC and the fans will let that happen.

    What would make the segment of the fandom "ugly?"
    From what I've seen there is a segment of people who have some issues with female characters beating male villains. See Rey from Star Wars, CW Supergirl, Captain Marvel etc.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-25-2020 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #199
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Different characters are different characters. What works for one character doesn't necessarily work for another.
    Ok. what in superman's character makes him reluctant of killing? Is it his ethics? Other than comics code, i haven't seen any reason. He is a strongman vigilante. Batman's no kill atleast makes sense.It is a moral restraint on himself to not become the monster he fights. Superman wouldn't become the monster he fights if he killed. For instance, did he become zod by killing zod? No. There is a chance that can happen. But, that chance always exists regardless of the killing .if Superman's no kill code is about valuing life then. Here is the conundrum, sometimes valueing or protecting life means taking it.it's contradictory but contradictions is life. Just like clark kent the fraud fighting for truth and superman the vigilante fighting for justice . As said, gohan let's it go.
    If superman's reasoning is above bolded part.Then he will need to content with android 16 or a cop or a soldier.Because talking heads are always right. Lol!

    I will also like to add,"for evil to triumph good men must do nothing". Moreover, "aku soku zan" or "Slay Evil Immediately" is a logical choice. As long as, you don't become the monster you fight.for Killing to protect from immediate threat in a moment of passion doesn't mean wanton murder. Keeping in mind wanton murder is always condemned.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-25-2020 at 12:18 PM.

  5. #200
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This isn't a good example when you pay attention to the context. This is an alternate reality parody that highlights wrong trends. Superman is deliberately written OOC here as well, and it makes fun of the increasingly ridiculous stakes going on in Gotham to break Batman, and has a throwaway line of dialogue with Aunt Agatha filling in for Batman. The comic itself reinforces how OOC this is for Wonder Woman.

    Do you have any examples from JLA or Earth One? I can't recall any from either of those. Even in the bad future of Rock of Ages, I don't think she does anything too outrageous or even uses a sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The story where she killed Max was fine in and of itself. It was other writers ignoring what actually happened in it that was the problem and it isn't like being a killer when other superheroes are not is the sole reason Diana is such a target for crappy writing and double standards. You only need to look at how Superman and Batman's particular screw ups were ignored after Infinite Crisis.
    I think it was a case of Rucka making lemonade out of the lemons he was handed. Other writers ignore it because they started the dubious plot to get a dubious point across. Rucka didn't do this in a vacuum.

    Morrison's Batman run was better for ignoring all that crap. It made for a better reading experience, I certainly don't want to be reminded of all that dumb crap. But I agree the same courtesy SHOULD have been extended to Wonder Woman, and Rucka's run shouldn't have been hijacked in the first place.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well there's that and the heroes of the DCU are flaming hypocrites when it comes to this sort of thing so a woman with snakes for hair getting killed is fine but apparently Max actually required proof he needed to be killed because he "looked like everyone else".
    They are flaming hypocrites because Rucka wrote them to be that way to make a point. Another writer could have written Superman as having an issue with both deaths. There was precedent for both of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm just not seeing Dr Psycho, one of the most outdated and offensive characters, taking Diana to massive heights of popularity. They;d probably have to revamp him as Morrison did (I'll give him props for that) but I doubt DC and the fans will let that happen.
    Just because you don't like him doesn't mean other fans and writers aren't interested in seeing him.
    I also don't see much from the WW fandom to indicate that they'd have much issue with the Earth One version being transplanted over. He actually seems to be one of the few elements of Earth One to be consistently praised. DC doesn't seem to consistently give a crap about her villains either way, I don't think they have an issue with letting this happen either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    From what I've seen there is a segment of people who have some issues with female characters beating male villains. See Rey from Star Wars, CW Supergirl, Captain Marvel etc.
    I haven't seen much of this, but I also don't much of a problem believing that it does happen.

    I don't think we'd get much of a vocal outcry from fans about Diana beating her own male villains.

  6. #201
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post

    .
    That's satire. That's morrison calling it out,not agreeing with it.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ok. what in superman's character makes him reluctant of killing? Is it his ethics?
    Yes, it is.

  8. #203
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    I honestly am not looking forward to this, to me unless I hear an overwhelming amount of support I’m not rewatching a movie I didn’t care for the first time. What I’m interested in though is kind of what this means going forward.

    Like if this gets well enough received does that mean we have a sequel? Is Ray Fisher going to do something as Cyborg on HBO Max? Affleck and Cavill are pretty much gone but that doesn’t mean Superboy, Supergirl, or Robin/Nightwing can’t show up as replacements for Batman and Superman? I would say that generally may not be the case but it is hard to see the end goal of releasing this just for the sake of releasing it. I also didn’t expect the Snydercut to actually exist at all so who knows at this point what may come out of this and if WB or whoever in charge see some value in doing that.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  9. #204
    all cops are bastards Elmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    I honestly am not looking forward to this, to me unless I hear an overwhelming amount of support I’m not rewatching a movie I didn’t care for the first time. What I’m interested in though is kind of what this means going forward.

    Like if this gets well enough received does that mean we have a sequel? Is Ray Fisher going to do something as Cyborg on HBO Max? Affleck and Cavill are pretty much gone but that doesn’t mean Superboy, Supergirl, or Robin/Nightwing can’t show up as replacements for Batman and Superman? I would say that generally may not be the case but it is hard to see the end goal of releasing this just for the sake of releasing it. I also didn’t expect the Snydercut to actually exist at all so who knows at this point what may come out of this and if WB or whoever in charge see some value in doing that.
    Cavill isn't gone. also, the movie is different in many key ways, so it wouldn't technically be a rewatch. going forward honestly matters less than the actual release, the movie could be 4 hours of ice cubes melting and it wouldn't matter. people just wanted this man to release his work.
    i'm always online and i'm nice on there

  10. #205
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    Cavill isn't gone. also, the movie is different in many key ways, so it wouldn't technically be a rewatch. going forward honestly matters less than the actual release, the movie could be 4 hours of ice cubes melting and it wouldn't matter. people just wanted this man to release his work.
    And you know what great for him that he’s getting to release his vision and fans of it get to watch it, no negative feelings from me at all. More looking on in awe that it happened at all if I’m honest.

    But there’s a part of me wondering what WB wants out of this. They’re putting money behind it, promoting it, and still technically working in that universe or have plans to. Makes me wonder if they have hopes for this or if it does really well what the next step is.

    And as for Cavill, I mean technically he hasn’t quit. That much is true, but it just gives off a feeling that’s he left to go do other stuff without officially announcing his departure. He could very well come back but it doesn’t feel likely, could be wrong though and I’ll admit that.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  11. #206
    all cops are bastards Elmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    And you know what great for him that he’s getting to release his vision and fans of it get to watch it, no negative feelings from me at all. More looking on in awe that it happened at all if I’m honest.

    But there’s a part of me wondering what WB wants out of this. They’re putting money behind it, promoting it, and still technically working in that universe or have plans to. Makes me wonder if they have hopes for this or if it does really well what the next step is.

    And as for Cavill, I mean technically he hasn’t quit. That much is true, but it just gives off a feeling that’s he left to go do other stuff without officially announcing his departure. He could very well come back but it doesn’t feel likely, could be wrong though and I’ll admit that.
    they want money and subscribers to HBO Max. they saw that there is clearly an audience for the Snyder Cut and that many haters will be swayed by sheer curiosity alone. a lot of factors can be involved, like what the movement did for suicide awareness, but the core is that they knew this would be huge for their service especially as an exclusive feature. i doubt they care about doing more Snyder DC stuff. we'll see next year though.

    what happened with Cavill is that WB switched gears and wanted to focus primarily on Supergirl. when all that news was coming out Cavill's agent publicly stated that he is still in the role of Superman for any possible Superman project. And about a year ago, Cavill and Christopher McQuarrie pitched outlines for a sequel to Man of Steel and a Green Lantern film that would tie into it. so not only is he still Superman he's been sporadically trying to get new projects off the ground. with nothing remotely official stating otherwise, and recent rumors that WB has dropped their Supergirl plans and switched back to Superman, I'm confident that Cavill will be Superman for at least one more film. but hell I say keep them coming if he wants to do it.
    Last edited by Elmo; 05-25-2020 at 02:51 PM.
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  12. #207
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Yes, it is.
    What are superman's core ethics/philosophy that controls his action?My rebuttal is based on exile story and explanation. It didn't work for me.

  13. #208

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    Ok, Justice League was one thing, but now Suicide Squad? Damnit Dc you’ve done so well since those initial failures. Don’t turn back now.
    Shit maybe the haters were right, give an itch, and suddenly we’re pretending Suicide Squad wasn’t the worst comic movie ever.

  14. #209
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Ok, Justice League was one thing, but now Suicide Squad? Damnit Dc you’ve done so well since those initial failures. Don’t turn back now.
    Shit maybe the haters were right, give an itch, and suddenly we’re pretending Suicide Squad wasn’t the worst comic movie ever.
    Streaming service needs cheap content.For that, they will even realease the directors cut of green lantern.

  15. #210
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Ok, Justice League was one thing, but now Suicide Squad? Damnit Dc you’ve done so well since those initial failures. Don’t turn back now.
    Shit maybe the haters were right, give an itch, and suddenly we’re pretending Suicide Squad wasn’t the worst comic movie ever.
    What about Suicide Squad now?

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