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  1. #46
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I think it's always in the back of his head and deepdown he enjoys risking it all in a match.So,he wants it hence the the declaration of victory. Imagine the adrenaline of going toe to toe with most powerful being on the planet. It doesn't get more ambitious than beating the man. The guy gets enjoyment with punching criminals. So naturally , punching superman would be on a different level. But, the minute bruce sees himself or his parents in clark. His enjoyment will quickly turn into anguish.That's also why bruce is fixated on Clark's humanity. It reminds him of his own, that makes him vulnerable and fearful .
    That's just not how I process Batman at all. I don't think Batman enjoys hurting people, at least if we're talking of a "good" Batman, he only does it to protect people and stop crime. His job is to prevent the hurt he experienced, not hurt others.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's just not how I process Batman at all. I don't think Batman enjoys hurting people, at least if we're talking of a "good" Batman, he only does it to protect people and stop crime. His job is to prevent the hurt he experienced, not hurt others.
    It really varies according to who is writing him. Morrison and Snyder Batman don’t. Miller Batman though? Yeah that guy definitely enjoys causing pain.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Nope.

    I think a truly altruistic Lex would do amazing things. He would cure disease, end world hunger, all kind of wonderful things using that big brain.

    However, I still think there are something that would always be beyond him. Stopping asteroids, Brainiac, Darkseid... A truly altruistic Lex wouldn't even have the drive to create all those super suits with advanced weaponry. He'd save a LOT of lives... but he wouldn't save ALLL the lives.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Nope.

    I think a truly altruistic Lex would do amazing things. He would cure disease, end world hunger, all kind of wonderful things using that big brain.

    However, I still think there are something that would always be beyond him. Stopping asteroids, Brainiac, Darkseid... A truly altruistic Lex wouldn't even have the drive to create all those super suits with advanced weaponry. He'd save a LOT of lives... but he wouldn't save ALLL the lives.
    Why not? I have said this altruism isn't lack of ambition or drive. They could totally coexist. If an astroied is something that people cannot solve. lex would see fit to intervene. He is a problem solver. He would tackle it. He doesn't exactly need a supersuit to tackle an astroied, either.As for the supersuit, bionics is advancing at a rapid pace. Noway a guy lex would be left in the dust. The absolutely hates being left in the dust. He prides himself on pushing himself persistently to achieve goal. If wants to make himself the strong, he is gonna do it.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Why not? I have said this altruism isn't lack of ambition or drive. They could totally coexist. If an astroied is something that people cannot solve. lex would see fit to intervene. He is a problem solver. He would tackle it. He doesn't exactly need a supersuit to tackle an astroied, either.As for the supersuit, bionics is advancing at a rapid pace. Noway a guy lex would be left in the dust. The absolutely hates being left in the dust. He prides himself on pushing himself persistently to achieve goal. If wants to make himself the strong, he is gonna do it.
    Because if he's still got that drive to be 'better than Superman'... than he really isn't different at all. If there IS no superman, than Lex doesn't have that gold bar to test himself against. He could make himself strong enough to lift a jet and still be the most powerful person on earth... so why have the goal of 'moving the moon'...

    As for threats like these... There is something about the combination of Superman's senses, reflexes and strengths that makes it legitimately possible for him to intercept the asteroid or stop the jet from crashing. For someone like Lex, he would still be operating at 'human' levels and still be playing catchup. Redirecting satelittes, ordering soldiers, suiting up... while the wreckage of the jets were crashing in the ocean.


    it's actually one of the least believable things in DC is that the news seems to report on things like that WHILE its happening. We have lots of jets crash in this world, and nobody hears about it till they miss their next check call. you don't realize theres something wrong till it's too late. Superman (and Flash) actually COULD see, hear and react in time to save those lives.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Because if he's still got that drive to be 'better than Superman'... than he really isn't different at all. If there IS no superman, than Lex doesn't have that gold bar to test himself against. He could make himself strong enough to lift a jet and still be the most powerful person on earth... so why have the goal of 'moving the moon'...

    As for threats like these... There is something about the combination of Superman's senses, reflexes and strengths that makes it legitimately possible for him to intercept the asteroid or stop the jet from crashing. For someone like Lex, he would still be operating at 'human' levels and still be playing catchup. Redirecting satelittes, ordering soldiers, suiting up... while the wreckage of the jets were crashing in the ocean.


    it's actually one of the least believable things in DC is that the news seems to report on things like that WHILE its happening. We have lots of jets crash in this world, and nobody hears about it till they miss their next check call. you don't realize theres something wrong till it's too late. Superman (and Flash) actually COULD see, hear and react in time to save those lives.
    Not really, lex just cares about helping people.That is more important. That's basically a difference. Why would the drive to be better than superman and besting him be connected to that. As for superman not being their causing the guy to not test himself. It's been discussed. The guy doesn't need superman. He needs goal and ambition, not exactly superman. He would always find something to work on.

    When is being at "human" level a bad thing. Lex could just redirect the asteriod by throwing a rock at it at the right angle, use an objects graity to change its trejectory and finally blow it ofcourse. There are tons of ways. As for the senses, the flashes cannot sense things. Lex has sensory equipment and a freaking satellite at his disposal. This is fiction. The guy could even get himself a powerstone and give himself superpowers.

  7. #52
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I think it's always in the back of his head and deepdown he enjoys risking it all in a match.So,he wants it hence the the declaration of victory. Imagine the adrenaline of going toe to toe with most powerful being on the planet. It doesn't get more ambitious than beating the man. The guy gets enjoyment with punching criminals. So naturally , punching superman would be on a different level. But, the minute bruce sees himself or his parents in clark. His enjoyment will quickly turn into anguish.That's also why bruce is fixated on Clark's humanity. It reminds him of his own, that makes him vulnerable and fearful .
    That's a really out of left field reading of Batman that I don't think has ever actually been on the page... I mean, maybe in Miller's All Star Batman as that was a pretty demented take but never in the actual ongoing.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    I am not following the conversation, but i guess some points from this may have come up. If we set aside the question of whether Luthor can be good or stay good, there is enough evidence to suggest that he could achieve great things if he wanted. Different people have written the character over the years so i can't claim this for all of them. But Lex Luthor is unusually smart. Even in terms of comics where you have highly intelligent beings impossible to exist, Luthor stands out in the top tier.

    So, here we are taking Luthor who wants to do good things for people without ulterior motives. I remember reading Superman Adventures #41. Mercy Graves brings Luthor all major problems which Lexcorp faces from around the world. These aren't some minor problems but stuff like worker's strikes which aren't easy to solve. He takes these problems and solves them within minutes. He hands out the solutions in a piece of paper. And sits down in his office to do what he actually does there. Plan to take down Superman. Such a colossal waste of his gifts when he can solve problems in minutes, that experts could take months or years.

    Red Son is another example. There Luthor practically does that. To fight Superman he actually turns around the fortunes of America, and finally ends up making Earth a paradise of sorts. That rascal thinks that beating Superman was his highest achievement. But you can't deny that what he achieves out of his spite against Superman is truly incredible. Similar example is from Pre-Crisis, from Superman Red and Blue from Superman #162, where Superman eradicates evil. And a good Luthor invents a serum which cures all disease from earth.

    I remember in the Public Enemies animated movie, after becoming president Luthor solves many of the economic problems facing the country within months of holding the office. I don't think it was strictly for winning public opinion or fight Superman. He just is so competent. I don't know about him being a self made guy. No matter how how hard working you are, you can't do these kinds of things unless you are exceptionally gifted. It would be equivalent to having one guy with power, who singlehandedly solves problems that entire governments aided by an army of experts can't do.

    If there is a question about him surpassing Superman for the sake of discussion, even if we could make Luthor a force for good, i am not sure he could surpass Superman fully. Superman has saved the world a number of times, not to mention the numerous lives he has saved over the years. In recent comics, he has started work on the United Planets. Superman's powers and influence has immense ramifications in the present and the future. He is supposed to live longer then Luthor ever could. So, i don't see him surpassing Superman, but boy can he be a force to reckon with!
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-21-2020 at 06:20 AM.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    That's a really out of left field reading of Batman that I don't think has ever actually been on the page... I mean, maybe in Miller's All Star Batman as that was a pretty demented take but never in the actual ongoing.
    I was talking about miller's batman. Wasn't i? The quote is from darkknight returns . I have seen the tendency of the guy to get lost in his own world. He does have a shark like behaviour sometimes. Always on the look out for some blood. He is always on the look out from some idiotic weaknesses in everyone . Batman does have the nietzschian trappings as a character as well. Ofcourse, the guy has some messed up side to him.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-21-2020 at 06:45 AM.

  10. #55
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It really varies according to who is writing him. Morrison and Snyder Batman don’t. Miller Batman though? Yeah that guy definitely enjoys causing pain.
    I agree it's pretty much a Miller Batman thing, but less so for Year One Batman. Like I don't think the guy who went out of his way to save a falling criminal and opening himself up to attack was in it to mostly put the hurt on people.
    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I was talking about miller's batman. Wasn't i? The quote is from darkknight returns . I have seen the tendency of the guy to get lost in his own world. He does have a shark like behaviour sometimes. Always on the look out for some blood. He is always on the look out from some idiotic weaknesses in everyone . Batman does have the nietzschian trappings as a character as well. Ofcourse, the guy has some messed up side to him.
    As long as we agree that this is pretty much purely Miller's Batman we're talking about here.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I was talking about miller's batman. Wasn't i? The quote is from darkknight returns . I have seen the tendency of the guy to get lost in his own world. He does have a shark like behaviour sometimes. Always on the look out for some blood. He is always on the look out from some idiotic weaknesses in everyone . Batman does have the nietzschian trappings as a character as well. Ofcourse, the guy has some messed up side to him.
    But that's not the normal Batman.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    But that's not the normal Batman.
    There is no such thing. Different writers have write different batmen.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    There is no such thing. Different writers have write different batmen.
    Not as different as the one you were painting, there is a base line Batman and he simply doesn't take pleasure in violence as you described.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Not as different as the one you were painting, there is a base line Batman and he simply doesn't take pleasure in violence as you described.
    We will just have to disagree.

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