Dr Doom vs Loki

[Anarchist]

Thought this might be a good battle, because both are some very powerful magicians and also very smart.

1. Non-prep straight up battle
2. 10 Minutes of Prep
3. 2 Days of Prep with allowed usage to external ressources

EDIT: This is Adult Loki, not Kid Loki.

[Surtur]

Doom wins all 3, with the last 2 being stomps.

[Anarchist]

Sure about that he even wins fight 1?
Loki stood up to Dr Strange, before the latter was nerfed.

[Surtur]

Sure about that he even wins fight 1?
Loki stood up to Dr Strange, before the latter was nerfed.

Yeah well, the thing is Doom is pretty potent in magic himself..but he also has his power armor as well. The combination of those two things..I think he should win. It also depends on exactly what you mean when you say Loki "stood up" to Strange. Perhaps it might go different if Doom was only allowed to use sorcery here and nothing else.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I've read he has time manipulation tech built into his armor.

[Primetime Harder]

Hell, I'm pretty sure I've read he has time manipulation tech built into his armor.

Thing is, actually using it completely drained the armor's considerable power supply.

Loki is too powerful for Doom to beat without prep.

[Shellhead]

Sure about that he even wins fight 1?
Loki stood up to Dr Strange, before the latter was nerfed.

That's an understatement. Loki was easily beating Dr. Strange before Stephen fled the fight.

And I don't know why anybody would automatically assume that Doom outpreps Loki. When Loki preps, gods are in danger.

[Shellhead]

This is Loki "standing up to Dr. Strange":

[Shellhead]

Sorry, it turns out that Doctor Strange didn't flee from Loki so much as Loki fled from Thor:

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/ima..._Strange_5.jpg

[Surtur]

Thing is, actually using it completely drained the armor's considerable power supply.

Why does that matter though? Since that is really all Doom needs.

Loki is too powerful for Doom to beat without prep.

Then I've seen people vastly overestimating how powerful an unprepped Doom is..for years now.

And I don't know why anybody would automatically assume that Doom outpreps Loki. When Loki preps, gods are in danger.

So Loki can now out prep Doom?

Sorry, it turns out that Doctor Strange didn't flee from Loki so much as Loki fled from Thor:

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/ima..._Strange_5.jpg

My issue now is..if Loki can stand up to Dr. Freakin Strange..why the hell would he flee from Thor?

[Omega]

You people seem to people to be woefully misinformed about Doom's unprepped power levels. But let's clarify a couple of things here first, just to be sure:

1) I recall neither Doom nor Loki having anything better than CBPH reflexes. Anyone arguing otherwise should pony up multiple scans with no extenuating circumstances to prove the claimed speed level of the character. Until such a point, I will work under the assumption that neither is faster than the other.
2)

That's an understatement. Loki was easily beating Dr. Strange before Stephen fled the fight.

And I don't know why anybody would automatically assume that Doom outpreps Loki. When Loki preps, gods are in danger.

This is patently untrue. Doom with prep power-jacked pre-retcon Beyonder. That is a feat that no one in the 616 has ever matched to the best of my knowledge. Marvel: The End is not cannon. I suppose technically the LT was unable to prevent Hawklord from duplicating his power, but CBR (along with the rest of the comic book-dom) likes to pretend that never happened. And with good reason. And I can't off the top of my head ever recall another character with multi-verse threatening power levels.

That is, of course, ignoring the other instances where Doom has power-jacked Silver Surfer, and a Watcher (who are low-end cosmics. By portrayal they seem to be ranked higher than skyfathers in the Marvel cosmos, but they lack the feats to beat Odin in a fight).

I also recall him getting his hands on a cosmic cube. Again, power levels on cosmic cubes vary from decade to decade, but they are a mid-level cosmic threat.

On another note: Here's a scan of Doom with prep planet-busting in Silver Surfer #107. Not sure Loki has ever explicitly done so, even were he capable of it.


3) Unprepped Doom is still an absolute monster. SharpandPointies credited him with ridiculous level durability due to several feats. One was his ability to survive (at all) the blast that pre-retcon Beyonder used to KO Galactus, and furthermore regain consciousness before Galactus himself. The feat is a bit nebulous, due to Galactus absorbing most of the blast, but it's impressive none-the-less. Then there was his ability to soak shots from Watchers, and survive getting forcefully expelled from Galatus' ship by Galactus, and several more that I can't remember anymore. He also easily no-sells Class 100s. And he has force fields.

4) Then you need to take into account his ability to both dimension hop and time travel with no prep required. As far as I've seen, he can time travel at will with no ill effects to his armor. Dimension jumping burnt out his armor pretty badly, the one time I know about.

5) Then of course we have the CBoC. Equal speed + this alone might be enough to win 5/10 battles with Loki. I'm not sure if Loki has a way to break free or dispel the bands once he's trapped inside.

Oh, and let's not forget about the OMS. An ability which is both cannon and he's utilized in at least 3 seperate arcs. If we proceed under the assumption that for whatever reason Doom might lose a normal fight, he has the option to OMS Loki and simply use Loki's superior abilities for the win. Loki may have sufficient feats to resist an OMS. I'm unsure about that point.

And aaallllllllll of that still ignores the absolutely MASSIVE array of weapons that Doom has built into his armor. Hypno-rays (would require good mental resistance feats to defend against), freeze-rays, power-draining rays, lightning emitters, neural disruptors, power-draining rays, blast power strong enough to down Class 100s. And more stuff I'm forgetting.

6) And to top it all off: Doom has absolutely, unquestionably the best mental defense and willpower feats of anyone on 616 earth. Approaching Thanos levels of mental defense.

Now not to take anything away from Loki here, but he better come with a lot of esoteric defenses, or some seriously overwhelming power to top everything that Doom has going on.

[Primetime Harder]

A quick disclaimer: I'm not arguing about Prep Doom. This is Fight 1.

Then you need to take into account his ability to both dimension hop and time travel with no prep required. As far as I've seen, he can time travel at will with no ill effects to his armor. Dimension jumping burnt out his armor pretty badly, the one time I know about.

Aside from the fact that dimension-jumping would ring himself out, Loki has cast spells across dimensions with absolutely no difficulty before.

I'm not sure if Loki has a way to break free or dispel the bands once he's trapped inside.

I should think he can. Dormammu himself has claimed that Loki's power nearly equals his own.

Loki may have sufficient feats to resist an OMS. I'm unsure about that point.

He's completely no-sold Enchantress's attempts to ensnare him mentally. That takes some doing.

Hypno-rays (would require good mental resistance feats to defend against)

See above.

blast power strong enough to down Class 100s. And more stuff I'm forgetting.

Loki's durability is such that he treats decapitation as a trivial inconvenience and can survive shots from Surtur wielding the Twilight Sword.

[Omega]

A quick disclaimer: I'm not arguing about Prep Doom. This is Fight 1.

That part of my post was directed at Shellhead, but noted.

Aside from the fact that dimension-jumping would ring himself out, Loki has cast spells across dimensions with absolutely no difficulty before.

Fair enough, that only eliminates one of Dooms multitude of avenues of winning.

I should think he can. Dormammu himself has claimed that Loki's power nearly equals his own.

1) This is in no way, shape, or form a feat.
2) Even if (for some unexplicable reason) we were to completely ignore the fact that we don't take such hyperbolic hearsay into account for rumbles, Dormammu is generally ranked as a skyfather, albeit a lower end one. Is your argument that Loki is equal in power to a skyfather?

He's completely no-sold Enchantress's attempts to ensnare him mentally. That takes some doing.

It doesn't surprise me that Loki has some mental resistance feats. I'd be kind of shocked if he didn't actually. I guess we'd have to go into an in-depth debate about the relative strength of his mental resistance vs an OMS.

Loki's durability is such that he treats decapitation as a trivial inconvenience and can survive shots from Surtur wielding the Twilight Sword.

Surtur is (again) a skyfather, as well as a board certified galaxy-buster. Do you believe that Loki can take galaxy-busting shots?


Anyhow, the way I like to resolve complicated rumbles like this is as follows:

What can character A do to win? -
- point A
- point B
- point C

What can character B do to resist those attacks?
- resistance A
- resistance B
- resistance C

Then reverse the scenario.

So I've pretty comprehensively listed ways that Doom might be able to win. I'm not sure exactly what time-dumping Loki would accomplish. I suspect he's immortal. If he's not then that might change things.

How can Loki kill/BFR Doom? Presumably his magic is stronger. I'm not really convinced that either one can win this physically, even over an extended period of time, but maybe I'm just poorly informed about Loki's unprepped offensive potential.

[Primetime Harder]

Is your argument that Loki is equal in power to a skyfather?

Going by his high showings - which I know we are - very nearly. On top of the Surtur thing, he's fought Dormammu before (in Avengers #118; don't know if there were extenuating circumstances). Either way, he wound up being infused with Dread D's power afterwards and spent months learning how to use it. He's also done battle with Odin on the astral plane (Thor #455).

It doesn't surprise me that Loki has some mental resistance feats. I'd be kind of shocked if he didn't actually. I guess we'd have to go into an in-depth debate about the relative strength of his mental resistance vs an OMS.

Another resistance feat I found for him - similarly no-selling one of the Controller's discs after it had been upgraded by none other than Thanos.

Do you believe that Loki can take galaxy-busting shots?

Upon closer inspection, the Sword was not yet at full strength. But considering that the same blows were also jacking with Odin, that's still damned impressive. Observe here and here.

but maybe I'm just poorly informed about Loki's unprepped offensive potential.

He's injured Surtur and overloaded a Celestial power-draining device. Oh, and remember when Silver Surfer was trapped on Earth by a barrier Galactus set up? Loki's the one who took it down for him. And while it may not avail him against Doom's force fields (at least, not at first), his physical strength is often underestimated; he's proven capable of shattering buildings and pimp-slapping Thor.

[Surtur]

The problem is Surtur is Odin level, so Loki hurting him is..nonsense. As for Dormammu, I've heard it said numerous times that the guy can take on a prepped Strange and not get owned. That means he should be leaps and bounds above Loki.

You also do not see the problem when Loki can overload a device meant for draining beings vastly more powerful then he is? Loki isn't even a blip to a Celestial, so how does he ever manage to pour enough energy into that device to overload it?

If all of what you are saying is true then Loki would have vastly surpassed Thor in power a long time ago.

[Anarchist]

Loki surviving a blast from Surtur is not any more over-the-top than Doom surviving one from freaking Pre-Retcon Beyonder.