Dr Doom vs Loki

[Captain Morgan]

There are absurd arguments being put forward for both sides here guys.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

There are absurd arguments being put forward for both sides here guys.

Of course there are. It's a thread about the God of Mischief.

[abmccray]

Doom's highest end overall prep feat is getting an Infinity Gauntlet, building his own universe from scratch, evolving it, getting bored as ruler, and getting overthrown while bored and needing Reed to bail him out.

With no outside objects, it's jacking The Beyonder, or the probably retconned out, going back to the dinosaur era and staying alive back to the point in which he went back in time for a ridiculously long-con.

[Anarchist]

Well maybe fight 3 is a stomp, I apologize for that, but Loki is a great prepper himself, and just 10 minutes with no allowed external ressources should at least be close.

[Beyonder]

Was gonna say Loki..........but Doom takes round 1 & 2 with a stomp but 3 he has a Mid diff but depends on versions.

[Primetime Harder]

You also do not see the problem when Loki can overload a device meant for draining beings vastly more powerful then he is? Loki isn't even a blip to a Celestial, so how does he ever manage to pour enough energy into that device to overload it?

Chalk that up to a bit of misunderstanding; it's not a device for draining Celestials, it's a draining device built by Celestials.

The problem is Surtur is Odin level, so Loki hurting him is..nonsense. As for Dormammu, I've heard it said numerous times that the guy can take on a prepped Strange and not get owned. That means he should be leaps and bounds above Loki.

...

If all of what you are saying is true then Loki would have vastly surpassed Thor in power a long time ago.

The thing about Loki is that he can be seriously, monstrously powerful when he's going all-out. (For instance, he completely owns Karnilla the Norn Queen on a regular basis, whom Doom would also likely need prep to defeat.) I didn't think he was that strong either, but then I started looking around for feats and went, "Holy crap." But there he was, doing it again and again and again.

And for what it's worth, I did come across a bevy of stuff that I believed to be SMvFL. Like Loki tagging a speeding Silver Surfer.

[Powerboy]

My issue now is..if Loki can stand up to Dr. Freakin Strange..why the hell would he flee from Thor?

I don't know how it is now but I think, at the time, Thor was presented as having a huge resistance to reality warping and magic. Dr. Strange before he was nerfed had spells bounce off of Thor.

It really depends, I suppose, on what era we are emphasizing and what we are considering to still be valid. Even weakened Loki was presented as vastly beyond Strange at his most powerful.

Doom is a deus ex machina or was for a time but some of those feats like jacking Galactus let alone the Beyonder required massive situational advantages and access to tech even beyond his own. And, at that, it's invoking stuff from the mid 1980s which is no different than invoking Loki stuff from the 1960s.

[Omega]

There are absurd arguments being put forward for both sides here guys.

Agreed. But these are kind of absurd characters. The most dubious bit of my claims about Doom was his durability. I'm pretty comfortable putting him at the "Teambuster: no-sells class 100s" level of durability. I think a planet-buster could hurt him though, surviving shots from cosmics or not. I personally am not a fan of using any sort of feats from Secret Wars 1 or 2. That author should never have been allowed to **** with the Marvel universe in such a manner.

But, like it or not, 60s Loki and 80s Doom are both cannon, so I guess their feats are valid for rumbles purposes.

[Captain Morgan]

Agreed. But these are kind of absurd characters. The most dubious bit of my claims about Doom was his durability. I'm pretty comfortable putting him at the "Teambuster: no-sells class 100s" level of durability. I think a planet-buster could hurt him though, surviving shots from cosmics or not. I personally am not a fan of using any sort of feats from Secret Wars 1 or 2. That author should never have been allowed to **** with the Marvel universe in such a manner.

But, like it or not, 60s Loki and 80s Doom are both cannon, so I guess their feats are valid for rumbles purposes.

OK, to isolate this, when the whole thing with the Beyonder has been retconned multiple times to involve stuff like the rest of the cosmics just playing along... No, the original feats aren't really canon anymore, or at least not meaningful.

I don't think Doom's standard durability is going to no-sell a class 100. I can see him taking a hit, or multiple hits, but I've never seen him rated as being able to say, withstand a Post-Crisis Superman blitz without prep, amping, or at least dialing up his force fields.

[Omega]

OK, to isolate this, when the whole thing with the Beyonder has been retconned multiple times to involve stuff like the rest of the cosmics just playing along... No, the original feats aren't really canon anymore, or at least not meaningful.

I don't think Doom's standard durability is going to no-sell a class 100. I can see him taking a hit, or multiple hits, but I've never seen him rated as being able to say, withstand a Post-Crisis Superman blitz without prep, amping, or at least dialing up his force fields.

On the old CBR, there was a post crisis Supes vs Doom thread. I think the consensus was that Doom's standard durability cannot withstand a near-light moon-busting blitz. I could, on the other hand, see him surviving a near-mach high-end class 100 blitz long enough to fry somebody one way or another.

Edit: Did Galactus getting KOed get retconned as well? I was under the impression that that feat still stood. I thought it was more like the LT that was playing along.

[Primetime Harder]

One thing I know hasn't been retconned is Doom power-jacking the Silver Surfer.

[Estrecca]

For instance, he completely owns Karnilla the Norn Queen on a regular basis, whom Doom would also likely need prep to defeat.

Haha, no.

Loki and Karnilla have fought twice.

In the first fight, Loki won by blasting her from behind, while she was distracted doing magic to extract Balder's soul from the Destroyer.

In the second, she initially bested him with an artifact and, after recovering, Loki managed to nab the artifact and scare her away.

"Completely owns" is not an accurate description. Hell, even Loki privately acknowledges her as his equal in magic.

[Primetime Harder]

In the first fight, Loki won by blasting her from behind, while she was distracted doing magic to extract Balder's soul from the Destroyer.

I thought it was she who blasted him from behind.

"Completely owns" is not an accurate description. Hell, even Loki privately acknowledges her as his equal in magic.

I was drawing from that fight, and this.

Something else I found - how much prep did Loki need to pull this off?

[Estrecca]

I thought it was she who blasted him from behind.

Actually, they both do.

Karnilla blasts Loki from behind, to little effect, though she seemed more interested in hurting him for putting Balder's soul in the Destroyer than in actually winning in a quick and efficient manner.

Karnilla and Loki fight it out for a bit, no clear advantage.

Karnilla decides that proximity to Balder's body represents an unacceptable risk and teleports out with it.

After a few moments, Loki realizes what has happened and follows, appearing behind Karnilla and blasting from behind while she is doing the soul stuff with the Destroyer.

It is also perhaps significant that before going to challenge Loki, Karnilla had just blasted the Destroyer with enough magic juice to stagger the thing. That strikes me as potentially significant.

I was drawing from that fight, and this.

Ah yeah. That one.

First appeareance ever, in which the Norn Queen is really an oracle and not even evil, unlike the later character.

[Primetime Harder]

Consider me educated, then. Still, stalemating and/or edging a win against someone capable of staggering the Destroyer also seems well above unprepped Doom's weight class.