Will CW's Batwoman Disgrace Batman like Supergirl Disgraced Superman?

[manwhohaseverything]

Except when Smallville and Metropolis looked like they have been hit by a nuclear bomb and Superman punching Zod and the other Kryptonians threw buildings and stores killing mllions of people. Sorry but IMHO Man of Steel is an awful movie and nothing you or any one else is going to say is going to change that.

Right, what you expect? a guy with god like power got pissed. Stuff got broke. You do know this ain't the first time superman got pissed and caused massive collateral damage. He is only human. He has issues like that of one. He does get angry.People have boxed in suoerman as the dogooder hero who does appropriate stuff without ever doing anything that feels human. Newsflash! He has greed, pride, wrath, gluttony..etc all the sins of man is present in him.So, if you feel threatened by that. You ought to be.

[Agent Z]

Except when Smallville and Metropolis looked like they have been hit by a nuclear bomb and Superman punching Zod and the other Kryptonians threw buildings and stores killing mllions of people. Sorry but IMHO Man of Steel is an awful movie and nothing you or any one else is going to say is going to change that.

I rest my case.

[Cyberstrike]

What is your point? Superman is not perfect? Oh I'm sorry but I've read all of Alan Moore's Superman stories and several "darker" Superman stories (other than Moore none of them are worth remembering) and yes I've seen all of Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited. So Superman has a dark side so what? It's how he overcomes the dark and inspires others to be better than they know.

Have you read this short dialogue from Dr. Manhattan (in this series he's suppose to be the ultimate cynical superhero) from Doomsday Clock #12:
"The Rocket Arrives.
A Child is Loved.
Superman is made.
I now understand Superman's true purpose.
He will show them the way.
And in a millennium when his timeline converges with the Legion's...humankind will finally embraces the way of Superman.
He is the bridge stretching across generations that will lead everyone to peace."

To me that is what Superman is supposed to be a beacon of light and hope in a dark world.

Now maybe to you he's a scary person no better than the worst of and that is fine for you, but for me the Supergirl TV show and the New 52 Batwoman comic are what brought be back to DCU after years of grimdark edge lord pandering BS that sucked the life of the comics and made the movies unbearable for a mass audience. In my OPINION the Arrowverse TV shows did what the movies failed to do and make live action versions of these characters appeal to a mass audience, not just to the 40+ year old cis-genered straight white men who had been reading comics their whole lives you know people like me. If comics are to have a future then they and the characters need to evolve beyond appealing just to people like me, and if you want kids (aka the future) to read them then you have to make their appearances in mass media have to appeal to them.

[manwhohaseverything]

What is your point? Superman is not perfect? Oh I'm sorry but I've read all of Alan Moore's Superman stories and several "darker" Superman stories (other than Moore none of them are worth remembering) and yes I've seen all of Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited. So Superman has a dark side so what? It's how he overcomes the dark and inspires others to be better than they know.

Have you this short dialogue from Dr. Manhattan (in this series he's suppose to be the ultimate cynical superhero) from Doomsday Clock #12:
"The Rocket Arrives.
A Child is Loved.
Superman is made.
I now understand Superman's true purpose.
He will show them the way/
And in a millennium when his timeline converges with the Legion's...humankind will finally embraces the way of Superman.
He is the bridge stretching across generations that will lead everyone to peace."

To me that is Superman. Maybe to you he's a miserable rotten person who wants to destroy the world for a laugh and that is fine. But after over 20 years of bad pandering grimdark superheroes and their stories quite honestly I'm sick and tied of it.

Hate to break it to you alan moore didn't do anything "dark" with the character. He just did a character study. Overcoming darkside has a cost.You can't get rid of your sins, you live with them. Moreover, if superman was about destroying the world.it would take seconds. He could literally push the earth into the sun like a ball. There would be nothing much anybody can do about it. He isn't about that, even in that movie. Your idea of superman is a skewed naive boyscout sungod savior farmboy who can't harm a fly. He gets pissed pretty often. So, you can't blame someone to portray the character as he is. No, he doesn't "overcome" them, he learns to direct his impulses. Zod threatened his mother. Things you should know about superman.
1)never i mean, never chain him
2)never box him in
3)never threaten his mom or dad.
4)never tug on his cape

This is also superman.
Call him rotten all you want. Doesn't change the fact that he literally saved the world from an extinction level event. That would have ended every one . Superman was always meant to be a controversial figure. I love one punch man for the same reason. He doesn't take bullshit like this.

Remarkable commentary about people opinion on superman. He can't do this or that. Otherwise he will be "rotten". Big whoop! He is. so what?He protected the world and as many as he could, killed zod.. Etc because its the right thing to do. He messed up cause he is human.Him goofing up has larger cost, cause he is also an alien. He doesn't need anyone's damn approval for doing what he thinks is right.Btw!one punch man isn't "dark".

[Sutekh]

It's a matter of personal taste I prefer to see Superman as a symbol of hope, and not of pointless destruction.

Definitely this. The sometimes 'cheesy' idealistic good-guy Superman played by Chris Reeves and Brandon Routh (and yes, Tyler Whatshisname) feel much more like the classic gold/silver age Superman to me. (That said, Henry Cavill really sells those enormous chesticles, and *looks* very much the part!)

I'm sure that there's a neat story to be told about a *literally* alienated emo angsty sort of super-dude who feels alone and different and like he has to walk on eggshells and not ever get angry with these tiny fragile monkeys on whose backwater planet he got stuck, but I don't really think that's *Clark's* story.

(And, somewhat ironically, I think the CW would be *perfect* for such a story. Mopey teen drama? Super power angst? Disaffected outsider, but popular model-hot teens? It's pretty much half their shows already!)

It's a hoot that the CW *didn't* embrace this 'angry young Superman' trope, but went for the older hopeful super-dad!

[manwhohaseverything]

Definitely this. The sometimes 'cheesy' idealistic good-guy Superman played by Chris Reeves and Brandon Routh (and yes, Tyler Whatshisname) feel much more like the classic gold/silver age Superman to me. (That said, Henry Cavill really sells those enormous chesticles, and *looks* very much the part!)

Which goldenage did you read? Cause cheese isn't goldenage(there is moments) . That guy was a swashbuckling action hero. He wasn't idealistic.He would get pissed quite often and goof up cause of recklessness as well

[Samm]

Honestly, I can’t even watch any of the CW shows anymore. Batwoman and Supergirl are so WOKE it hurts. They couldn’t just focus on telling a good story with a good character, they had to throw in bad one liners and terrible writing always focusing on politics. The Flash has become the same way. I think only Stargirl (because it’s DCU), Black Lightning (though it sometimes has annoying political racial undertones) and Legends (for its campiness) are the only ones worth watching. Superman is probably going to be a lame show too, focusing more on Lois and making her capable rather than Superman himself, given CW’s track record. Now that we have HBO Max and DCU, I feel the CW shouldn’t even be allowed to touch the DC characters since they can’t deliver quality on the level of Doom Patrol, Swanp Thing or Stargirl.

[Guy1]

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, the first thing we see him doing in mos is saving a bunch of people from an oil rig fire. The guy avoided fighting until the Zod invasion and anyone who is actually paying attention will see most if not all the destruction is caused by Zod. What we saw in mos isn't even different from your average superhero fight.

Superman's biggest enemy is and always will be his fanbase and theur ridiculous standards which half the time have never been lived up to.

I don't think "have the movie be at least pretty good and don't shoot Superman's pal Jimmy Olsen in the goddamn face" is all that ridiculous of a standard. This whole "Superman fans just can't handle him not being perfect" stuff is as much of an oversimplification as calling Superman "Man of Murder" is.

It's not like Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Shazam were presented as being flawless individuals who set an impossible standard and were subsequently rejected as boring. They were overall embraced and Superman fans would be over the moon to have a modern movie as entertaining and good as those at this point. Because the DCEU Superman was built to have a 5 film arc that included his death and resurrection and the formation of the JL before he could be a fully formed Superman. Meanwhile, Patty Jenkins, James Wan and David Sandberg had that wrapped up in one competently made film each because they actually understand the broadest appeal of their characters and knew what they were doing.

[Will Evans]

Honestly, I can’t even watch any of the CW shows anymore. Batwoman and Supergirl are so WOKE it hurts. They couldn’t just focus on telling a good story with a good character, they had to throw in bad one liners and terrible writing always focusing on politics. The Flash has become the same way. I think only Stargirl (because it’s DCU), Black Lightning (though it sometimes has annoying political racial undertones) and Legends (for its campiness) are the only ones worth watching. Superman is probably going to be a lame show too, focusing more on Lois and making her capable rather than Superman himself, given CW’s track record. Now that we have HBO Max and DCU, I feel the CW shouldn’t even be allowed to touch the DC characters since they can’t deliver quality on the level of Doom Patrol, Swanp Thing or Stargirl.

Dad Superman will be shown as the greatest Superman of them all. A millennial born father to Generation Z sons. With anything going on in the world, this is what we need right now.

[Ra-El]

Dad Superman will be shown as the greatest Superman of them all. A millennial born father to Generation Z sons. With anything going on in the world, this is what we need right now.

I just want Superman to have his own story line on the show, and his character not amount to "I worry about my kids", because that got old fast on Black Lightning. Jefferson whole motivation on that show is his family, só while his daughters and wife are out that having aventures and working on their things, Black Lightning is doing nothing but worry and complain that they don't listen to him.
And while Supergirl may have proved that this is a very nice and secure Superman they failed at showing him as a competent hero. So it would be good if in Superman and Lois they give him something to do beyond his kids and take some time to show the audience that Superman van actually take care of villain without help.

[Agent Z]

I just want Superman to have his own story line on the show, and his character not amount to "I worry about my kids", because that got old fast on Black Lightning. Jefferson whole motivation on that show is his family, só while his daughters and wife are out that having aventures and working on their things, Black Lightning is doing nothing but worry and complain that they don't listen to him.
And while Supergirl may have proved that this is a very nice and secure Superman they failed at showing him as a competent hero. So it would be good if in Superman and Lois they give him something to do beyond his kids and take some time to show the audience that Superman van actually take care of villain without help.

Yeah, that's not even remotely true about Jefferson.



Caring about your family doesn't mean you don't care about anyone else.

[Jokerz79]

Right, what you expect? a guy with god like power got pissed. Stuff got broke. You do know this ain't the first time superman got pissed and caused massive collateral damage. He is only human. He has issues like that of one. He does get angry.People have boxed in suoerman as the dogooder hero who does appropriate stuff without ever doing anything that feels human. Newsflash! He has greed, pride, wrath, gluttony..etc all the sins of man is present in him.So, if you feel threatened by that. You ought to be.

That was a newly built area of town only spectators and reporters not a full city like MOS and the whole point of that episode was the League even Superman was starting to lose some perspective and going too far.

In both fights in MOS Superman fought inside city/town limits even taking the fight from his family farm to the center of Smallville. DCEU Supes needs anger management classes or get off Earth. As for saving Earth he only saved Earth due to an event happening because his dad sent him and the codex to Earth.

as for CW Superman I like him except telling Kara she makes the hard choices he can't like really CW really?

[Agent Z]

I don't think "have the movie be at least pretty good and don't shoot Superman's pal Jimmy Olsen in the goddamn face" is all that ridiculous of a standard. This whole "Superman fans just can't handle him not being perfect" stuff is as much of an oversimplification as calling Superman "Man of Murder" is.

It's not like Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Shazam were presented as being flawless individuals who set an impossible standard and were subsequently rejected as boring. They were overall embraced and Superman fans would be over the moon to have a modern movie as entertaining and good as those at this point. Because the DCEU Superman was built to have a 5 film arc that included his death and resurrection and the formation of the JL before he could be a fully formed Superman. Meanwhile, Patty Jenkins, James Wan and David Sandberg had that wrapped up in one competently made film each because they actually understand the broadest appeal of their characters and knew what they were doing.

I was talking about Superman's behavior in MoS and BvS not the quality of the movies or what happens to supporting characters. Last I checked, Clark wasn't the one who shot Jimmy. When you're acting like he's deliberately going around smashing up cities for laughs, I think it's safe to say fans have a real problem with demonizing any version of Superman who isn't perfect.

[SiegePerilous02]

I was talking about Superman's behavior in MoS and BvS not the quality of the movies or what happens to supporting characters. Last I checked, Clark wasn't the one who shot Jimmy. When you're acting like he's deliberately going around smashing up cities for laughs, I think it's safe to say fans have a real problem with demonizing any version of Superman who isn't perfect.

The other poster didn't say anything about him laughing. Superman does save people and Zod does most of the damage, but the most he does is express mild concern through his face. Which frankly may not be enough for some people. He didn't even express that much when he plowed Zod through the gas station in Smallville. The rest of the fight wasn't his fault, but that was a blunder on his part.

Some of the demonization is hyperbole. But saying detractors have ridiculous standards is hyperbole as well. I think a movie that depicts a "Superman saving people montage" with seriously foreboding music playing over it garners a bit of a "WTF" reaction. And not just from supposed diehards either. And how we react to the content and judge the films overall is tied into how the executions of these scenes make us feel. We can "get it" and still think it sucks.