The Infinity Inc. Problem

[ducklord]

I am an old-school DC fanboy. I love the Justice Society, I love the original concept of Earth-2, and I love all of Roy Thomas's attempts to weave the golden age history of DC into a cohesive whole.

It also goes without saying that I loved Infinity Inc., the team of second-generation heirs to the JSA legacy that premiered in the early 80's.

Now, with the JSA about to get woven back into DC's Prime Earth continuity, I think it's time to ask a pointed question: What do we do about Infinity Inc.?

From all appearances, the JSA is going to retain their status as a WWII era fighting team. This means that its remaining active members are (absent a retconned time jump), pushing 100 years old. And, to some degree, the remaining members all have explanations for their continued activity (Speed Force, Starheart, Nine Lives, etc.). But they are freakin' old.

Which brings me to Infinity Inc.. Originally conceived as "The JSA's super-powered kids," but only a few of them actually were their children. The membership broke down like this:
Star-Spangled Kid - Time-tossed member of the Seven Soldiers and the JSA.
Fury - Daughter of Earth-Two Wonder Woman, later retconned to be be the daughter of the Golden Age Fury.
Silver Scarab - Son of Golden Age Hawkman and Hawkgirl
Nuklon - Godson of Golden Age Atom
Northwind - Son of Golden Age Hawkman's scientist friend.
Jade: Daughter of Golden Age Green Lantern and Golden Age Thorn
Obsidian: Son of Golden Age Green Lantern and Golden Age Thorn
Wildcat: Inspired by Golden Age Wildcat
Dr. Midnight: Inspired by Golden Age Dr. Mid-Nite
Hourman: Son of Golden Age Hourman

Obviously, any of the characters merely "inspired" by their earlier counterparts (Wildcat II, Dr. Midnight) could just as easily be active heroes today, with careers starting whenever is convenient. Also, Nuklon and Northwind could easily have their origins jostled a little to be present-day characters. And, being time-tossed, Skyman could pop out anywhere near the present.

But what about Fury, Scarab, Jade, and Obsidian? When were these kids supposed to have been born? When their dads were in their 70's? That's doable, I suppose, but what about their moms (Fury I, Shiera Hall, and Thorn)? Even accounting for various magical things, this seems way weird. As time rolls on it's just going to get stranger and stranger to have a 100+ year old Green Lantern sharing adventures with his mid 20something daughter, who really should be his great-granddaughter.

So, what should be done? Should Infinity Inc. exist at all in the main DCU? Should they be left in the 1980's as a failed super-group? Should strange time jumps be inserted into the JSA's history (remembering to take all of their wives and girlfriends), so that the JSAers can not be freaky-old in the present, and sire children in the late 90's?

What do?

PS It amuses me no end that the existence of the current Dream of the Endless rests partially on the histories of two characters (Hector and Lyta Hall) who may not have existed in current continuity. I like to think that it amuses Neil Gaiman, too.

[Will Evans]

I am an old-school DC fanboy. I love the Justice Society, I love the original concept of Earth-2, and I love all of Roy Thomas's attempts to weave the golden age history of DC into a cohesive whole.

It also goes without saying that I loved Infinity Inc., the team of second-generation heirs to the JSA legacy that premiered in the early 80's.

Now, with the JSA about to get woven back into DC's Prime Earth continuity, I think it's time to ask a pointed question: What do we do about Infinity Inc.?

From all appearances, the JSA is going to retain their status as a WWII era fighting team. This means that its remaining active members are (absent a retconned time jump), pushing 100 years old. And, to some degree, the remaining members all have explanations for their continued activity (Speed Force, Starheart, Nine Lives, etc.). But they are freakin' old.

Which brings me to Infinity Inc.. Originally conceived as "The JSA's super-powered kids," but only a few of them actually were their children. The membership broke down like this:
Star-Spangled Kid - Time-tossed member of the Seven Soldiers and the JSA.
Fury - Daughter of Earth-Two Wonder Woman, later retconned to be be the daughter of the Golden Age Fury.
Silver Scarab - Son of Golden Age Hawkman and Hawkgirl
Nuklon - Godson of Golden Age Atom
Northwind - Son of Golden Age Hawkman's scientist friend.
Jade: Daughter of Golden Age Green Lantern and Golden Age Thorn
Obsidian: Son of Golden Age Green Lantern and Golden Age Thorn
Wildcat: Inspired by Golden Age Wildcat
Dr. Midnight: Inspired by Golden Age Dr. Mid-Nite
Hourman: Son of Golden Age Hourman

Obviously, any of the characters merely "inspired" by their earlier counterparts (Wildcat II, Dr. Midnight) could just as easily be active heroes today, with careers starting whenever is convenient. Also, Nuklon and Northwind could easily have their origins jostled a little to be present-day characters. And, being time-tossed, Skyman could pop out anywhere near the present.

But what about Fury, Scarab, Jade, and Obsidian? When were these kids supposed to have been born? When their dads were in their 70's? That's doable, I suppose, but what about their moms (Fury I, Shiera Hall, and Thorn)? Even accounting for various magical things, this seems way weird. As time rolls on it's just going to get stranger and stranger to have a 100+ year old Green Lantern sharing adventures with his mid 20something daughter, who really should be his great-granddaughter.

So, what should be done? Should Infinity Inc. exist at all in the main DCU? Should they be left in the 1980's as a failed super-group? Should strange time jumps be inserted into the JSA's history (remembering to take all of their wives and girlfriends), so that the JSAers can not be freaky-old in the present, and sire children in the late 90's?

What do?

PS It amuses me no end that the existence of the current Dream of the Endless rests partially on the histories of two characters (Hector and Lyta Hall) who may not have existed in current continuity. I like to think that it amuses Neil Gaiman, too.

You’re forgetting the villains like in the Injustice Society and their children too.

Plus heroes like Black Canary and Jack Knight Starman.

[ducklord]

You’re forgetting the villains like in the Injustice Society and their children too.

Plus heroes like Black Canary and Jack Knight Starman.

Yeah, those are all problems, too. In Jack's case, it's getting increasingly likely that he's just plain disappeared from continuity. As for Black Canary, her legacy was always a retcon to begin with, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gets retconned out when the JSA returns. She could, in the end, just be a vigilante with a mutant voice who was inspired by an obscure golden age heroine.

[CaptCleghorn]

Yeah, those are all problems, too. In Jack's case, it's getting increasingly likely that he's just plain disappeared from continuity. As for Black Canary, her legacy was always a retcon to begin with, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gets retconned out when the JSA returns. She could, in the end, just be a vigilante with a mutant voice who was inspired by an obscure golden age heroine.

The presence of Jade and Obsidian in Doomsday Clock seem to indicate that the characters are back in continuity. The II characters are a factor complicating the return of the JSA as if they can still be active, even if limited, their spouses and families are suffering from the passing of time. They're the big reason I suggest having the JSA timeskipped to a decade or so before the modern age of heroes so they can raise families.

Personally, I'm getting to the point whre I don't care how they return, just that they do with older originals and the next generation of the original Earth Two crowd. But then, there will be many who will wnat to know and I doubt DC will not explain it. As long as it doesn't suck, I'm happy.

[Will Evans]

The presence of Jade and Obsidian in Doomsday Clock seem to indicate that the characters are back in continuity. The II characters are a factor complicating the return of the JSA as if they can still be active, even if limited, their spouses and families are suffering from the passing of time. They're the big reason I suggest having the JSA timeskipped to a decade or so before the modern age of heroes so they can raise families.

Personally, I'm getting to the point whre I don't care how they return, just that they do with older originals and the next generation of the original Earth Two crowd. But then, there will be many who will wnat to know and I doubt DC will not explain it. As long as it doesn't suck, I'm happy.

I’m gonna come clean. I know most people love the JSA’s World War II adventures. And that they’re from that time period. But in twenty years in 2040, will that even matter? Will anyone still care?


I say adjust the JSA history so that they were born 50-60 years before the present. That they were active as superheroes 35 to 40 years before the present. And their children were born 25 to 35 years ago, when they were retired.

[sifighter]

I say just acknowledge that Crisis on Infinite earths happened, I mean how else are you going to explain Powergirl, just live with the idea that they are from another world and now live here. It’s honestly more complicated not acknowledging changes to the universe/multiverse at times.

Though in fairness most of the cast we have from Doomsday Clock/Geoff John’s JSA are second generation heroes, infinity inc members, and the inspired characters. I mean the only originals are Jay, Alan, Ted, and Kent Nelson and only because their powers are convenience aging them or prolonging their lives, Hawkman only reincarnates. I mean just look at this Doomsday clock image, it’s clearly not the original line-up from WW2.

E75D734E-0FB1-4A13-9566-435815659F00.jpg

[CaptCleghorn]

I’m gonna come clean. I know most people love the JSA’s World War II adventures. And that they’re from that time period. But in twenty years in 2040, will that even matter? Will anyone still care?


I say adjust the JSA history so that they were born 50-60 years before the present. That they were active as superheroes 35 to 40 years before the present. And their children were born 25 to 35 years ago, when they were retired.

It's not so much the WW2 adventures for me, but it's the attitudes and old-school philosophy. Their personalities fit with people who lived through a major somewhat popular war and the great depression. It's not all just making dates fit for some, it's keeping a certain attitude. Current heroes and villains have gone through changes in tone over the years and the Infinitors will as well, but a JSA who grew up in the sixties and seventies will produce a different tone than those fighting in WW2. Or they should, anyway. A sixty year old today is someone who graduated with the "That 70's Show" kids. I was there and while you could write the characters as they are currently seen, it wouldn't be right to me.

It's all a matter of "I like" or "I prefer" on this, though and opinions are good to share. I get your point and I see the appeal. There is a simplicity to the concept which could work, even if I'm not in favor of it.

[Storminator16]

But in twenty years in 2040, will that even matter? Will anyone still care?

It's 2020, nearly 80 years. It still matters now and we still care. A safe bet, unless WW3 happens and/if everyone get's their head out of their butts to say "no" to war, it will still matter. If we move the time period, it will become a writer's exercise in cynicism. WW2 is universally regarded as an impossible war to avoid. Every war Americans entered in after, are very questionable and the reasons, nefarious.

So, I guess I can expect some editor to ruin the Golden Age, eventually.

I thought the last Star Spangled Kid was the heroine now called Stargirl?

She wasn't the first Star-Spangled Kid. Her step-dad was the original's sidekick.

[The no face guy]

I am an old-school DC fanboy. I love the Justice Society, I love the original concept of Earth-2, and I love all of Roy Thomas's attempts to weave the golden age history of DC into a cohesive whole.

It also goes without saying that I loved Infinity Inc., the team of second-generation heirs to the JSA legacy that premiered in the early 80's.

Now, with the JSA about to get woven back into DC's Prime Earth continuity, I think it's time to ask a pointed question: What do we do about Infinity Inc.?

From all appearances, the JSA is going to retain their status as a WWII era fighting team. This means that its remaining active members are (absent a retconned time jump), pushing 100 years old. And, to some degree, the remaining members all have explanations for their continued activity (Speed Force, Starheart, Nine Lives, etc.). But they are freakin' old.

Which brings me to Infinity Inc.. Originally conceived as "The JSA's super-powered kids," but only a few of them actually were their children. The membership broke down like this:
Star-Spangled Kid - Time-tossed member of the Seven Soldiers and the JSA.
Fury - Daughter of Earth-Two Wonder Woman, later retconned to be be the daughter of the Golden Age Fury.
Silver Scarab - Son of Golden Age Hawkman and Hawkgirl
Nuklon - Godson of Golden Age Atom
Northwind - Son of Golden Age Hawkman's scientist friend.
Jade: Daughter of Golden Age Green Lantern and Golden Age Thorn
Obsidian: Son of Golden Age Green Lantern and Golden Age Thorn
Wildcat: Inspired by Golden Age Wildcat
Dr. Midnight: Inspired by Golden Age Dr. Mid-Nite
Hourman: Son of Golden Age Hourman

Obviously, any of the characters merely "inspired" by their earlier counterparts (Wildcat II, Dr. Midnight) could just as easily be active heroes today, with careers starting whenever is convenient. Also, Nuklon and Northwind could easily have their origins jostled a little to be present-day characters. And, being time-tossed, Skyman could pop out anywhere near the present.

But what about Fury, Scarab, Jade, and Obsidian? When were these kids supposed to have been born? When their dads were in their 70's? That's doable, I suppose, but what about their moms (Fury I, Shiera Hall, and Thorn)? Even accounting for various magical things, this seems way weird. As time rolls on it's just going to get stranger and stranger to have a 100+ year old Green Lantern sharing adventures with his mid 20something daughter, who really should be his great-granddaughter.

So, what should be done? Should Infinity Inc. exist at all in the main DCU? Should they be left in the 1980's as a failed super-group? Should strange time jumps be inserted into the JSA's history (remembering to take all of their wives and girlfriends), so that the JSAers can not be freaky-old in the present, and sire children in the late 90's?

What do?

PS It amuses me no end that the existence of the current Dream of the Endless rests partially on the histories of two characters (Hector and Lyta Hall) who may not have existed in current continuity. I like to think that it amuses Neil Gaiman, too.

I wouldn't worry about the age thing too much, DC always finds away to compress or fiddle around with ages so they work. For an Infinity inc series too come out it would just have to be on prominent writers wishlist and DC will give at go. Outside of the JSA, Infinity inc, and the Global Guardians are really the only two notable super teams that I can think off that haven't had a release for a while. So fingers crossed.

[Digifiend]

Star-Spangled Kid - Time-tossed member of the Seven Soldiers and the JSA.

I thought the last Star Spangled Kid was the heroine now called Stargirl?

[kcekada]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

[caj]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

That's in the same ballpark as my suggestion from the previous page of this thread:

If they moved those characters back to Earth 2, then they could say that the WWII of their world happened much later than the 1940s. That way, the veteran characters from JSA could be much younger but old enough to be parents/guardians of Infinity Inc members.

[Factor]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

Yeah, that's basically my solution too. Keeping them away for an unlimited amount of time.
But in my idea they would be back around the time Kal-El arrived on Earth, so their offspring could also be around his age or younger like the Titans.
This would explain not only the Infinitors but all JSA legacies, like Dinah Laurel Lance.

[DrNewGod]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

Yeah, I didn't love that idea at first, especially because it is so much Captain America's thing. That said, as time goes by, I don't see a better way.

[DrNewGod]

IIRC, his homeland, Feithera, got massacred tho, and the survivors moved to Qurac or Bialya or something, and then got massacred *again.* ... It is amazing that these places can survive for centuries, or even millenia, until they show up on the page, and then they blow up every couple of years.

That could be said of the entire DCU.

The solution I'd most prefer would be to leave both the JSA and InfInc in the past of an Earth 2. Writers could visit them in their heyday with "untold stories," and present day tales could be told using new characters, some legacies and (mostly, I'd prefer) unique creations. IMO, the time is right for characters that probably wouldn't work in the mainstream DCU, that recognizes not only the need for diversity, but also how complex a notion justice is. In other words, characters a lot more like the JSA's original roster back in 1940 and earlier, but more widely representative.

Of course, that's not going to happen. Even if DC were willing to embrace an approach to E2 that lends itself to periodic miniseries or an anthology book, like with the GL franchise, these forums suggest that the fanbase is much too divided to embrace it. Further, since there's no way DC is going to stick to any ban on the E2 crowd crossing over with the main continuity, it's only a matter of time until the "how old are they anway?" issue resurfaces.

For that reason, I've come to an opinion that what kckada proposed is about as good a solution as we can possibly get.

...The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.