The Infinity Inc. Problem

[Storminator16]

But in twenty years in 2040, will that even matter? Will anyone still care?

It's 2020, nearly 80 years. It still matters now and we still care. A safe bet, unless WW3 happens and/if everyone get's their head out of their butts to say "no" to war, it will still matter. If we move the time period, it will become a writer's exercise in cynicism. WW2 is universally regarded as an impossible war to avoid. Every war Americans entered in after, are very questionable and the reasons, nefarious.

So, I guess I can expect some editor to ruin the Golden Age, eventually.

I thought the last Star Spangled Kid was the heroine now called Stargirl?

She wasn't the first Star-Spangled Kid. Her step-dad was the original's sidekick.

[Factor]

I created this other thread some weeks ago to discuss this same issue:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-aging-problem

I guess making the Infinity Inc members the grandchildren of the JSA is an okay solution, but it does make us wonder why the new parents of the Infinitors never became heroes too and what happened to them.
In my other thread I pointed out how some characters could have specific explanations to how they're still so young (like Jade and Obsidian being the children of a man who doesn't age and the new immortal version of Thorn), but we'd still be left wondering why the likes of Jesse Quick are still do young.

I thought some more about this issue and decided that Bendis' idea to use Johnny Thunder to basically blink the whole team out of existence for some time may be one of the best ways to go. I just disagree with HOW that happened in Doomsday Clock, because it doesn't explain why all those legacies still exist if the team wasn't around for so long.

So here's my own idea, inspired by Clock:
In the 50's, after the team publicly disbanded, some members continued their careers as mystery men. This didn't seat well with most of their enemies, who feared the team would eventually reassemble.
So they devised a plan to strike all former JSA and All-Star Squadron members. After being stricken individually, heroes like Mr Terrific succumbed, triggering the team's reunion to handle the issue.
A large conflict would ensue against the Secret Society of Villains. The JSA would then realize the only way to stop this endless conflict and save the lives of their loved would be to make the villains forget they ever existed.
In a final battle where Johnny Thunder would be tasked with making the villains forget about them, he would blink the JSA, the All-Stars and their loved ones from existence, hoping to return them to life once the spell on the villains' minds was in full effect.
Mordru would have realized this trick and, right before dying from Hawkman's last blow, would have attacked Johnny, leaving him catatonic for decades.
The JSA would then have been lost inside Johnny's mind as he grew old. Only his power and a flicker of hope inside his mind keeping him alive for longer than his body normally would.
...
Until one day, when an alien rocket crashes on a farm in Smallville, marking the start of a new age of wonder.
Johnny somehow feels this shift and recovers conscience. He is able to return his friends and their families to life.
The team struggles readjusting to this new world. They feel it still isn't ready for super-heroes to return, deciding to build new lives for themselves.
Most of them marry, get new jobs, have children... But some would still be active in the shadows.
30 years later, when Superman finally debuts and a new team for Justice is assembled, the JSA finally feel welcome again, and the legend is truly reborn.


-----

There you go. A way to keep the older members in their 50s or 60s, and their kids anywhere from 30 (Black Canary II) to 20 or so.
This would also open space for some insteresting tales about the JSAers returning to a world they don't recognize and having to basically restart their lives from scratch.

[Sutekh]

Grandchildren, and some great grandchildren, of the JSA would work better today.

Or just leave it at the squiffily defined 'descendants' or have some be honoring the legacy of, but not biologically related to / descended from the golden age JSA. That way they don't have to be redefined *again* when it becomes weird age-wise for them to be *grandchildren* as well.

In quite a few cases, the heritage doesn't matter (Beth Chapel, Yolanda, etc.) anyway, but the only one's I'd keep as direct descendants would be Jade and Obsidian, and that could be explained away as 'something happened and the children were snatched away for decades by some ebil, and only recently returned, freed from stasis, grown to teenagers.' Or something more clever than that idea I just plucked from the ether.

[titanfan]

I guess making the Infinity Inc members the grandchildren of the JSA is an okay solution, but it does make us wonder why the new parents of the Infinitors never became heroes too and what happened to them.
In my other thread I pointed out how some characters could have specific explanations to how they're still so young (like Jade and Obsidian being the children of a man who doesn't age and the new immortal version of Thorn), but we'd still be left wondering why the likes of Jesse Quick are still do young.

As it is now, there's a "missing heroes" gap of several decades now anyway.

Past creators have introduced heroes like the Justice Experience (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_Experience) to try and bridge the gap. And the thought is that there were hero groups and metas, but none of them were really outstanding to be remembered except by superhero historians.

[John Venus]

I have my own ideas on how a JSA/Infinity Inc revival could go. However, the problem with the JSA/Infinity Inc is just a symptom of a larger problem at DC, especially internally. Even without the pandemic the industry would still be struggling.

[Flash Gordon]

Or just leave it at the squiffily defined 'descendants' or have some be honoring the legacy of, but not biologically related to / descended from the golden age JSA. That way they don't have to be redefined *again* when it becomes weird age-wise for them to be *grandchildren* as well.

In quite a few cases, the heritage doesn't matter (Beth Chapel, Yolanda, etc.) anyway, but the only one's I'd keep as direct descendants would be Jade and Obsidian, and that could be explained away as 'something happened and the children were snatched away for decades by some ebil, and only recently returned, freed from stasis, grown to teenagers.' Or something more clever than that idea I just plucked from the ether.

I like that a lot. I prefer the 'descendants' to be people inspired by the heroes of ole, rather than actually their biological spawn.

It also avoids the whole 'chosen ones' narrative that I'm not a fan of, and any signs of nepotism. I'd beef Jade up to be the leader and granddaughter of Alan Scott. Everyone else can be descendants or just inspired by.

[Flash Gordon]

If they moved those characters back to Earth 2, then they could say that the WWII of their world happened much later than the 1940s. That way, the veteran characters from JSA could be much younger but old enough to be parents/guardians of Infinity Inc members.

Making the war a concept, rather than a historical moment would be a mistake. The context needs to be kept.

If they moved to Earth Two, I'd prefer they debuted the year of their creation. Superman in '38, etc. Exploring the implications of that, over a long form narrative, would be fun. It would also free up the main line to not worry about that stuff and just focus on modern interpretations.

[Ascended]

Removing the JSA from WWII is a mistake. Do that and you might as well not have a JSA at all.

So I figure there's four easy options for dealing with Inc. None of them are super clean, but they're all serviceable and given the time jump between the Golden Age and today, "serviceable" is as good as it's gonna get.

So, option one; put the JSA back on earth-2 where they belong. This won't happen, and it still leaves us with the time jump problem but it solves a lot of continuity issues that clutter earth causes.

Or, when the JSA are thrown into limbo/time/ragnarok/whatever in the 50's, just say their families went with them. Depending on the details, the Infinity kids could be young adults when that happens, or the JSA could pop out of limbo/time/ragnarok/whatever twenty-ish years ago, and the kids have grown up since. Largely depends on if you want to deal with the "people out of time" Captain America type stuff.

Or, you just say that most of the Infinity kids aren't the children of the JSA but are instead either (great)grandchildren or just random people picking up the mantles. There's a few Infinitors who could theoretically be long lived like their parent/s, Jade and Obsidian for example, but everyone else is a grandkid or no relation.

Final option is to use that 5G timeline. The JSA never went into limbo/time/ragnarok/whatever; they retired during the McCarthy hearings in the 50's and had families. A couple decades (give or take) later the League generation debut, and the Infinity kids are around that same age range; maybe a bit younger on average but closer to Batman's age than Dick Grayson's. Which would be a different kind of dynamic and shift the Infinitors away from being "earth-2's Titans" but I don't see that as being a big deal.

[CaptCleghorn]

Removing the JSA from WWII is a mistake. Do that and you might as well not have a JSA at all.

So I figure there's four easy options for dealing with Inc. None of them are super clean, but they're all serviceable and given the time jump between the Golden Age and today, "serviceable" is as good as it's gonna get.

So, option one; put the JSA back on earth-2 where they belong. This won't happen, and it still leaves us with the time jump problem but it solves a lot of continuity issues that clutter earth causes.

This is the best option for me. The drawbacks pretty much only have to do with the JSA on a different earth and team-ups become difficult. Truth be told, teamups with the JSA are actually easier IF THEY EXIST AND ARE PUBLISHED. Now as to the years not lining up, who says Earth 2 needs to be the same year as whatever DC is calling their main earth this year. I've made the argument before, but change history because of the JSA. The fact that the JSA was active in WW2 and had no effect on the war at all is insane. After the war, society starts to change as a result of the JSA's gaining in prominence and the effects their magic and tech have on the world. So, an Earth 2 in the year 1985 won't (or shouldn't) look at all like ours (or DC's main earth) did in 1985.

It's been mentioned but the decades of superheroics would have an effect on the world. We see some with marvel and DC books already with their roughly 15 year scale. The mention of an Earth 2 should scream NOT OUR EARTH! and we should see a different setting.

As for descendants/inspireds for Infinity, Inc., the family aspect of the characters and how different generations reacted to circumstances is the key to that team. Kids and Teens are one thing. Your kids and teens are a different story. And with Damian and Jon Kent getting time and focus, as well as Jack Knight's run being so celebrated, it seems DC and fans are willing to go with that. IMO, Crisis killed Infinity, Inc. The JSA was removed and the Infinitors became another team of youngsters looking like a Titans knock-off.

But I fear DC is looking at the reception the nu52 Earth 2 book got and fail to realize it was caused by the mess created by post Robinson writers and wasn't a problem with the concept.

[Robotman]

I say just acknowledge that Crisis on Infinite earths happened, I mean how else are you going to explain Powergirl, just live with the idea that they are from another world and now live here. It’s honestly more complicated not acknowledging changes to the universe/multiverse at times.

Though in fairness most of the cast we have from Doomsday Clock/Geoff John’s JSA are second generation heroes, infinity inc members, and the inspired characters. I mean the only originals are Jay, Alan, Ted, and Kent Nelson and only because their powers are convenience aging them or prolonging their lives, Hawkman only reincarnates. I mean just look at this Doomsday clock image, it’s clearly not the original line-up from WW2.

Attachment 96872

Yeah, Johns’ JSA is kind of a mash up of the original team and Infinity Inc. His concept for the team is that they’re the original superheroes who are training the current generation. So Infinity Inc still exists, it’s just part of the JSA now.

I would like to see a version of Infinity Inc on a new Earth 2. They could be the Earth 2 equivalent of the Titans. Would love to see an image of Nightwing and the crew sitting around a table with a crystal ball revealing Infinity Inc.

[DrNewGod]

There's a real irony in all of this. Until Roy Thomas' All-Star Squadron, WWII wasn't a huge part of the JSA's identity. Yes, several issues of All-Star Comics had stories featuring the war, as did the titles and/or features of almost all of the JSA's members, but they spent at least as much of their time on gangsters or mad scientists between 1942-1945. When they returned in the 1960s, I don't remember their status as war heroes being a big focus of their depiction, other than "Crisis on Earth-X." Thomas changed all of that.

Had Thomas series not so anchored the WWII era with then-modern fans, DC probably could have gotten away with being very vague about when The Golden Age began. At the same time, had Thomas not given us those two excellent series (All-Star Squadron and Infinity, Inc.), fans might not care enough to make it worth bringing the E2 crowd back. Catch 22.

[kcekada]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

[kcekada]

I'm especially hopeful that Infinity Inc. can make a return. I wouldn't mind seeing them have 'Legends of the DC Universe' type of adventures whey they travel through time -- since it would work so well with the team's name. And yeah, let's finally rescue Lyta Trevor Hall and relink her with the Wonder Woman family!

[caj]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

That's in the same ballpark as my suggestion from the previous page of this thread:

If they moved those characters back to Earth 2, then they could say that the WWII of their world happened much later than the 1940s. That way, the veteran characters from JSA could be much younger but old enough to be parents/guardians of Infinity Inc members.

[Factor]

Someone posted an excellent solution in this forum a few months ago.

My idea was that they would still be from Earth 2 where time moves more slowly, but eventually, that wouldn't work. The proposed solution was that the JSA was trapped in stasis for an undetermined period of time. The length of time would simply be increased each year. This is similar to how Captain America can be linked to WW2, but is now eternally in his 30s. The period of time he was suspended in an iceburg is fluid. This was also how DC brought back the Marvel Family in the 70s -- even though they were around in the Golden Age and hadn't been seen since.

So, it could be written that after being freed from stasis -- most of the JSA went into semi-retirement and started having kids. So the only time that would be relevant is when they were released from stasis -- and that would always be about 20 years ago. So they could be trapped in stasis 50 years or more. While that seems a long period of time, keep in mind that Mon-El was trapped in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years.

Yeah, that's basically my solution too. Keeping them away for an unlimited amount of time.
But in my idea they would be back around the time Kal-El arrived on Earth, so their offspring could also be around his age or younger like the Titans.
This would explain not only the Infinitors but all JSA legacies, like Dinah Laurel Lance.